I have a 25 year old York gas furnace and A/C. It is no longer cooling well (7-8° delta) and I anticipate the diagnosis will be that it is low on freon. Assuming that this is the case and and a repairable leak is not found and the age of the system, I think it is probably time to consider replacing the system. While it is not operating as it should, I do have some time to work with and do some research since there isn't an urgent need to replace the system. At least it is not urgent yet. If it were completely out of order I would be under a lot of pressure from my better half to get the A/C working ASAP.
Some of the nice things to have when replacing the system would be improved efficiency and a quieter air handler. The utility room is adjacent to the theater/rec room where it would be nice to have a little less noise from the air handler and the gas burners as well. I really don't have that much of a problem with noise from the compressor, but a quieter compressor would not go unappreciated. Reliability is on the list as well.
Using Trane as an example my options are:
1. XR80 furnace with XR14 A/C. That's single stage all around and nearly equivalent to what I have but better efficiency on the A/C. SEER 11 vs. SEER 14-16
2. Same as 1 above but with XT80 furnace for a more efficient blower motor.
3. XL80 furnace and XL16 A/C. That's two stage on both furnace and A/C which could be quieter than 1 and 2. Maybe some improved efficiency over 2 due to maybe a better SEER on the A/C.
4. XV80 furnace with XV18 A/C. Compared to 3 this adds a variable speed blower to the furnace and a lot more stages to the compressor.
5. Same as 4 but with a XC80 furnace. This makes the whole system a communicating setup.
6. I guess another potential option is to replace the A/C unit and coil while keeping the original furnace, but I am not sure how well that would work out.
What would be the best bang for my buck here? Note that I am willing to spend more if it makes sense especially since this something I will have to live with for an extended period of time. Going by the price ranges on the Trane website leads me to believe that the price difference in the various furnace/air handler upgrades are relatively modest while the upgrades to the A/C is where things can get expensive. I assume the other major HVAC manufacturers have similar product lines and pricing and will likely get more than one estimate. Have I missed anything? Is there something else I should be considering?
That's true in so many ways. The trick is knowing when you have found a good contractor. I honestly have not needed to purchase a new system before, so this is unknown territory. I am just looking for some input to help me evaluate whether the estimated provided are the best fit for me vs. an unnecessary up sell or if other more suitable options are being presented.
Option 1 is ok, but base grade and will likely not be available next year due to the blower efficiency requirements.
Option 2 is a unit being phased out and no longer being produced. It has been replaced with a similarly priced S8X1 single stage or S8X2 two stage models, both having the same blower as the XT80. For not much more I would go 2 stage.
Option 3 is another phased out unit, replaced with the S8X2. Cost is the same but you get the high efficiency blower. The XL80 will offer only 14-15 SEER out of the XL16. Whereas, you can get up to 17 SEER with the high efficiency blower motor.
Option 4 is likely not an XV18, but and XL18i. If it truly is an XV18, your contractor/salesman is a moron find another dealer. If he mistakenly wrote XV vs XL then that’s a good option (mistakes happen). The XL has a 2 step compressor which is a good bang for the buck. If you don’t really are about covered lid then you can save quite a bit by going with the XR17 which is the exact same unit as the XL18i with an open top and a 10 year compressor warranty like the XR14.
Option 5 is good, but go with dual fuel, you’ll save on both heating and cooling costs.
It’s important to evaluate your ROI when looking at SEER. If you’re not going to be in the home for 10+ years don’t even bother yourself with SEER ratings.
The higher end units should be based on your needs to provide better comfort.
Last edited by mgenius33; 07-14-2019 at 06:07 PM.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
I didn't see a single ahri# indicating matched equipment or tonnage. What's the model numbers of your furnace, evaporator coil and condenser? Was a manual j performed to determine the proper sized equipment? Was static pressure or duct sizes measured to see how much air the ducts can move? Was poor airflow in any hot/cold room addressed? It's all good equipment as long as its installed well which is more the exception than the rule, it's all the same garbage when installed not using best practices. Do your homework on what you want. I dont recommend getting high efficiency equipment unless your willing to duct seal/insulate rigid duct or replace flex duct. You'll never get that level of efficiency if its leaking 33% of your conditioned air out of the ducts, as is reported by the DOE. Two stage equipment is great but pointless if its oversized and ecm motors will always attempt to move the correct amount of air, even if the ducting can't move that much resulting in noise, high power consumption and short motor life
Location - with street address,
I can see the front/ side exterior of your house
+ I can measure it
__________ So WHY would one actually need to see it in person.
+ ZIP _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ for Heating Degree Days (HDD)
_______ for Cooling Degree Days (CDD)
_______ for Design Temperatures
Age - good-to-know to estimate insulation and infiltration
Size: Perimeter & Total Floor Area
Wall Height
# of Floors
Wall R-Value
Ceiling R-Value
Floor R-value
Windows:
SHGC & U-Value
Orientation – Square Feet each direction
North __ Sq Ft
South __
East ___
West __
Number of bedrooms
Infiltration - A.C.H. Natural
_____ Blower Door Test results
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
This is a lot of helpful information. I did not know that the lower efficiency blowers were being phased out. In all likelihood we will still be in the house for another 10+ years so the ROI on a higher efficiency A/C is a possibility.
No estimates yet, so no one has had the opportunity to do a schedule J or not. I don't have the model numbers handy, but the AC is a 3 ton unit and the furnace is 64,000BTU output 80%. Almost all of the ducting is rigid duct but it is leaky. I'd say that most of the leakage is within the building envelope but that is a rough guess. Sealing the duct work will require ripping out a fair amount of drywall. We do have one room that needs a bit more airflow since it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. That is on my list to try to get addressed. Looks like I will have to put together a checklist to make sure any estimate covers those items as well as a list of items to give to the estimator.
I think I filled out some Schedule J worksheet several years ago. I'll see if I can dig that up.
If you have metal ducting, a spray in sealer can be used, probably with very little drywall work being necessary. I’ve only heard of this procedure, never seen it used, maybe someone on here will shout out with their experience.
The verdict is in on my existing system. Here's what the tech told me.
System is low on freon (R-22) approx. 3lbs.
It is expensive to top it up.
It will cost $$$ to find the leak.
The leak is probably in one of the coils and it will be difficult to source a replacement coil and the replacement will be expensive.
Money spent on the above would be better applied to a new system.
He said he could see if he could get someone out to do an estimate maybe later today and I told him that it depended on the time. He went out to the van, made a call, and then came back and did his best to provide and estimate using the capacity of the existing system as a guide. As a part of this process I showed him a room that is cold in the winter and hot in the summer. This is likely due to insufficient supply to that room. It is larger and has more windows than the other rooms on that level but still has a single register the same size as the other rooms. He checked the airflow at the register and basically said it has good airflow and the new system would solve the problem. I was not satisfied with that response. Not knocking the guy as a tech, but he may need some work in the estimating dept. I may call the company back to see if they will send out one of there regular estimators to see if I can get better set of options and see if they might have suggestions on what they might do to fix the problem room.
Here is the American Standard equipment for the base estimate:
S8B1B080M4PSA - furnace
4A7A036 I think this is really 4A7A4036 since it is a SEER 14 unit
4PXCBU36 - coil
On this level there were some upgrades to S8X2 and I'm guessing the Gold 80v furnace. It does seem odd pair a variable speed furnace with a single stage compressor. I'm going to get a couple more estimates and to see if the others have any ideas about solving the problem room and see if any bust out a schedule J and D.
I did dig up a "Whole-House Heat Loss & Gain Worksheet" several years ago and it does seem that my existing system is sized correctly. The ducts are another matter. Hopefully they are sufficient.
************** Leesburg, VA 20176
8 1994
11 width 30ft, 2 floors + approx. 2ft exposed concrete basement
12 depth 30ft
13 height 8ft
15 no floor insulation, floor is below grade
16 R-14
18 R-30
19 No insulated ducts. All ducts are within the floor joist cavity except for the basement which is in the ceiling.
21 Double pane, U value 0.35?, 236 sq ft
22 0.78
23 86.3 assuming the front is the south side
24 135.6
25 14.1
26 0
30 4 bedroom
35 No blower door tests. Assume reasonably tight.
39 $1.19
42 $0.12
What's not really covered here is that there is a slightly conditioned closet above the garage. I have this at 150 sq ft. floor, 172 sq ft. ceiling, 120 sq ft. wall, all are at R-19
******************** Leesburg, VA 20176
8 1994
11 width 30ft, 2 floors + approx. 2ft exposed concrete basement
12 depth 30ft
13 height 8ft
15 no floor insulation, floor is below grade
16 R-14
18 R-30
19 No insulated ducts. All ducts are within the floor joist cavity except for the basement which is in the ceiling.
21 Double pane, U value 0.35?, 236 sq ft
22 0.78
23 86.3 assuming the front is the south side
24 135.6
25 14.1
26 0
30 4 bedroom
35 No blower door tests. Assume reasonably tight.
39 $1.19
42 $0.12
What's not really covered here is that there is a slightly conditioned closet above the garage. I have this at 150 sq ft. floor, 172 sq ft. ceiling, 120 sq ft. wall, all are at R-19
Option 3
AHRI 8704136
A/C - Trane XV18
Furnace - Trane XC80
Coil - 4TXCB004DS3
Thermostat - XL1050
+ Duct work changes and dampers for zoning to improve top floor and master bedroom
Here are my thoughts on the options
Option 1 - Looks to be a solid replacement and would be an upgrade over the existing equipment. I'd swap out the Nest for maybe something like the XR303.
Option 2 - I'm not sure what to make of this one. I just wonder if there is some confusion here. The current XR16 looks to be a single stage compressor while earlier versions are two stage. I think the intent with this one may have been to provide an option with the two stage compressor, but I am not sure. I'm going to see if I can get an estimate with XR17 instead since it is a two stage and I think my situation could benefit from a longer run time that a two stage system could provide and swap out the Nest for the XR303.
Option 3 - A big upgrade and would probably do a lot to solve uneven heating and cooling in my house. This estimate is significantly more expensive then the other two options. I am just having some difficulty justifying the extra expense. Note that there is something wrong with this estimate in that I think it is the wrong furnace. It should be an 80k BTU and not a 100k BTU furnace.
Besides needing to replace the A/C soon I wanted to see if there were some recommendations what might be done to solve some uneven temps around the house. This is a 2 level house with a finished basement. In the summer the top level can be 2-3 degrees warmer than the rest of the house with the master bedroom being the warmest of the rooms on the top floor. I use two portable fans in the stairway to keep the air from stratifying especially when there is low demand from cooling. On top of that, in the summer the indoor humidity is usually well above 50%. Typically it is 60% and in the spring and fall it is higher than that.
Before I go back and ask about getting another estimate from this contractor with the two stage XR17 I have two questions.
1) I think it is safe to assume that the longer run time that having two stage heating and cooling will help keep things more balanced due to longer run times, correct?
2) With two stage heating and cooling along with the variable speed fan would it be possible split the system into two zones with the top floor on one zone and the main floor and basement on another zone? I know this incomplete information but assume ~900 sq ft. per level.
3) Anything else I should ask?
*5* Leesburg, VA 20176
8 1994
11 width 30ft, 2 floors + approx. 2ft exposed concrete basement
12 depth 30ft
13 height 8ft
15 no floor insulation, floor is below grade
16 R-14
18 R-30
19 No insulated ducts. All ducts are within the floor joist cavity except for the basement which is in the ceiling.
21 Double pane, U value 0.35?, 236 sq ft
22 0.78
23 86.3 assuming the front is the south side
24 135.6
25 14.1
26 0
30 4 bedroom
35 No blower door tests. Assume reasonably tight.
39 $1.19
42 $0.12
What's not really covered here is that there is a slightly conditioned closet above the garage.
I have this at 150 sq ft. floor, 172 sq ft. ceiling, 120 sq ft. wall, all are at R-19
1800 SQ FT with basement / without the _slightly conditioned closet
__ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ Slightly Conditioned closet add ~8% ?
Q. Sensible 23,200 BTU/HR at 93'F … 2.54 Tons total capacity, SHR 0.76
Clear Glass with a very slight amount of internal shading
$338 / cooling season 1,400 CDD at $0.12 / kw-hr, SEER 17
Q. Heat Loss 26,600 BTU/HR at 17'F
$ 619 / heating season, 4460 HDD __ 3-Ton Heat Pump THERMAL BALANCE POINT 22'F
Heat pump operating cost is < $689 for Natural Gas at $ 1.19 / Therm
It is NOT typical to have N.G. operating cost higher … $1.19 seems to be Higher than normal for Eastern U.S.
ATTACHMENT
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
You are right $1.19 is high. Not sure where I got that from. During heating season it can be around $0.60.
The sensible load is within a few hundred of what I got.
When it comes to design conditions for the winter and summer outdoor temps, what do you usually use? The values automatically populated by loadcalc.net seem to be a bit conservative with 90 for summer and 14 for winter. In summer we can have a stretch where the daily high is above 90 and in the winter it can drop below zero.
"The name on the truck/van is more important than the name on the box"
Choose your contractor wisely!
Ask your friends/family who they TRUST (trust means they go back over and over, because they found 'a good one')... and give the person a call.
If it were me... I would go with an 80% VS furnace (consider a 96% VS furnace if the gas cost is high)...
With either a 15-16 SEER single stage or 2 stage AC...
I would not get the expensive inverter AC, unless you just like expensive toys...
Consider a media style filter... they help with dust and breathing clean air!
Ask the contractor about some ductwork mods to lower the wind noise when the unit is running...
There are lots of options.
And yes... an AHRI# is a good thing.
AND... ask your power co about rebates... might get a rebate check for some $$$... grin!
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
This set of estimates includes a media filter for each option. I will ask about duct noise. The only duct noise that is noticeable is the return when the A/C is running and I suspect it is mainly the fan/blower itself. The supply ducts are reasonably quiet. When the furnace is running most if not all the noise is the burners and draft inducer. Hopefully that will improve some with the new furnace.
I had checked and unfortunately there are no rebates from the utility. Definitely something worth checking into though.
Yeah...
In the last few years...
The utilities are either not paying rebates at all...
Or they raised it to 17 or 18 SEER.
I bought a home and moved last fall...
Installed 20 SEER inverters...
NO rebates...
OTOH... I pay $0.105/KWH year round...
So I guess that is a good deal!
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
I'm a fan of the xv80 furnace but if your on the fence about a high efficiency some of the 95+% furnaces have sealed burner compartments and ecm induced draft motors that quiet the noise down very noticeably over an older 80%, in heating. Hooked up to an xr17 all ran by a honeywell prestige IAQ tstat. 2 stages of heating and cooling ran by a tstat that can slow the blower to maximize humidity removal and can control other accessories like humidifiers and erv's. The xv18 is really cool technology, works great and probably is going to be the wave of the future. My only concern with this tech is the possibility that in 5 years they release a new model line that doesnt use any of the old big inverters and its built into the compressor ( let's hypothesize ). Now they dont really have a need to continue to produce the inverters so they won't and maybe they decide not to do any licensing deals with the after market to continue making them available. Just saying I've had to throw away a lot of tech because it was no longer supported anymore
Yeah... it is possible the inverter boards in outdoor units will go away...
However for now...
They are cool...
And I like the low elec bills I am getting...
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
You are right $1.19 is high. Not sure where I got that from. During heating season it can be around $0.60.
The sensible load is within a few hundred of what I got.
When it comes to design conditions for the winter and summer outdoor temps, what do you usually use? __ ASHRAE 1% and 99% _
The values automatically populated by loadcalc.net seem to be a bit conservative with 90 for summer and 14 for winter.
In summer we can have a stretch where the daily high is above 90
and in the winter it can drop below zero.
< 14'F would likely occur for < 34 hours / year based on 30 year average for Leesburg VA
EXTREME outdoor temperatures are never selected as the DESIGN CONDITIONS.
Inside conditions are generally dictated by state building code
75'F / 50% R.H.
70'F Winter
BASIS: ASHRAE FUNDAMENTALS - CHAPTER 14; 2009, 2013 or 2017
HDD and CDD are also available in Chapter 14 data tables.
Also, 2.5% data may have been used as a historical ( > a decade or 2 ago) standard practice.
Temperatures that are automatically populated in available software
may also be based on ACCA Manual J ( latest edition or otherwise).
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities