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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Do you see any conflict of interest the other way around? Those scientists rely on grant money. Some get very wealthy from it. And some need grant money to put food on their table. Literally.

    The more of a "consensus" there is the more that tap opens up and throws money at them.

    Plus many are social justice warriors. Blind zeolots. I've met many of them. Worked in their labs as they chatted. Trust me. Some were nuts.

    If money coruotsnone end of the argument, wouldn't it stand to reason it would corrupt the other end? There billions of dollars at stake and up for grabs. Literally up for grabs. As long as you come to the right opinions.
    So what? Innocent until proven guilty right?

    Some of those scientists are paid by oil companies. Want to take a guess at what their conclusions are?

    Some scientists this, some that... Blah blah blah.

    CO2 in our atmosphere affects the Earth's temperature. It's a fact. GA proved it with one of his links last month. It's a fact, he proved it, let's move on.

    Partially related, one of my father in-laws is a scientist. He and a group of people he works with got their non-scientist boss fired for prioritizing profit over integrity.

    I'll trust a scientist over a politician or lobbyist about science.

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Can you tell us what you paid for each of the respective refrigerators?
    close the same. pretty same size. I had a Siemens A++++ grade that costed around 750€ and energy footprint was 108 kwh / year. Now I have a Whirlpool that costed around $800, energy consumption 410 kwh/y.
    Even if you assume that the testing cycles are different in EU and US it won't make a 4x difference (that would be a fraud then somewhere!). Now enlighten me, why it is possible to have nearly same sized fridge using either X or 4*X the energy? And before someone again raises the different test cycle argument: yeah you have the same problem with the cars. An average car in the EU will take maybe 6l of gas for 100km, while a similar car in the US will likely take twice. You see my point? We are not talking about rikshaw vs car, we are talking about similar sized cars without any noticeable drawback with respect to comfort.

    Another example: before 2015 an average vacuum cleaner in the EU had energy consumption of about 2000-2500W (in fact they were even advertising with the power "get bigger" etc), then came a law that the power cannot exceed 600W... yeah no vacuum cleaner with more than 600W can be sold in the EU! And guess what happened? Somehow automagically 600W vacuum cleaners popped out of nothing and you do NOT notice any difference in the cleaning efficiency. In fact I was really surprised how much better the 600W cleaner was compared to the 2400W cleaner I had before... and how much more silent! you get my point? Something can be done if the right laws are in place.

  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustavhorna View Post
    close the same. pretty same size. I had a Siemens A++++ grade that costed around 750€ and energy footprint was 108 kwh / year. Now I have a Whirlpool that costed around $800, energy consumption 410 kwh/y.
    Even if you assume that the testing cycles are different in EU and US it won't make a 4x difference (that would be a fraud then somewhere!). Now enlighten me, why it is possible to have nearly same sized fridge using either X or 4*X the energy? And before someone again raises the different test cycle argument: yeah you have the same problem with the cars. An average car in the EU will take maybe 6l of gas for 100km, while a similar car in the US will likely take twice. You see my point? We are not talking about rikshaw vs car, we are talking about similar sized cars without any noticeable drawback with respect to comfort.

    Another example: before 2015 an average vacuum cleaner in the EU had energy consumption of about 2000-2500W (in fact they were even advertising with the power "get bigger" etc), then came a law that the power cannot exceed 600W... yeah no vacuum cleaner with more than 600W can be sold in the EU! And guess what happened? Somehow automagically 600W vacuum cleaners popped out of nothing and you do NOT notice any difference in the cleaning efficiency. In fact I was really surprised how much better the 600W cleaner was compared to the 2400W cleaner I had before... and how much more silent! you get my point? Something can be done if the right laws are in place.
    Hard to answer buddy, The last refrigerator I bought I paid 100$ cash for. My most recent refrigerator is a freebie, really nice side-by-side. Older than dirt but fridges tend to last 40+ years if taken care of. Cost me less than 100$ to fix it.

    Why do you need to buy 800$ refrigerators if you are so energy conscience? You do realize creating refrigerators demands valuable resources and creates Co2? Can you not recycle a bit?

    You stated:

    I really ask myself what's wrong with US, they dont give a shit about anything, even if it doesn't cost them anything to improve.

    My reply is two-fold. Firstly you are dead wrong, as wrong as rat-poo in chicken-noodle soup wrong. I don't think I have ever spent 800$ on all the refrigerators I have ever owned in my entire life. Let's add them up,.. 100 400[that one was new] I think there might have been an 80ish one in there back in the 80s. All of those are gone ceptin the 100$ one. So to claim that it would not cost me money to buy a more efficient refrigerator is simply foolish, I am under 600$ on expenses, and I own 2 refrigerators. Your math is simply wrong. If it helps to digest, I am 54 years old.

    Secondly, you are wrong and quite insulting to accuse Americans of "Not giving a shit about anything". We do care, we just don't buy into your climatology bologna. That is not a scientific argument, just an insult. WHY IN THE F ARE YOU HERE? If you do not like it here, I cordially invite you to depart back to your beloved Europe at your earliest possible convenience. And don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustavhorna View Post
    lol

    even if climate change by co2 is biased and we got the temperature rise wrong by a factor of 2 or 3, whats wrong with developing better technologies?

    Always think about that: every time you use fossil fuels this hole is getting bigger and bigger:



    is that something intelligent to burn fossil fuels? For sure not... just for the sake of the hole.
    Becuase the world is better off with the USA as the economic superpower. Some believe that this climate change movement is meant to even the playing field.

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    So what? Innocent until proven guilty right?

    Some of those scientists are paid by oil companies. Want to take a guess at what their conclusions are?

    Some scientists this, some that... Blah blah blah.

    CO2 in our atmosphere affects the Earth's temperature. It's a fact. GA proved it with one of his links last month. It's a fact, he proved it, let's move on.

    Partially related, one of my father in-laws is a scientist. He and a group of people he works with got their non-scientist boss fired for prioritizing profit over integrity.

    I'll trust a scientist over a politician or lobbyist about science.
    I don't deny money influences science. But in both sides. That was my point. Idiology also gets in the way. Humans are humans.

    I'm glad your father in law stood up.

    I will find a video for you. It's Glenn Beck, but I'd urge you to watch it. He interviews Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay. Not sure if you heard of these guys. What they've done is pretty amazing. They've blown the lid off peer review and group think in the science community and academics. And they are die hard liberals.

    What they've done and gone though is pretty fascinating. They touch on many subjects.

    I think the interview is less than an hour. If I dig, will you watch it? I believe you'd think it was worth it.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
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    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    I don't deny money influences science. But in both sides. That was my point. Idiology also gets in the way. Humans are humans.

    I'm glad your father in law stood up.

    I will find a video for you. It's Glenn Beck, but I'd urge you to watch it. He interviews Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay. Not sure if you heard of these guys. What they've done is pretty amazing. They've blown the lid off peer review and group think in the science community and academics. And they are die hard liberals.

    What they've done and gone though is pretty fascinating. They touch on many subjects.

    I think the interview is less than an hour. If I dig, will you watch it? I believe you'd think it was worth it.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
    https://youtu.be/6nAJ4YJheTw

    I didn't watch this one, but something similar that was half as long last year. Yeah, for sure, good stuff. It was all over CBC News and talk shows.

    Yes, both 'sides' can be corrupted. But since the scientists that are funded from both sides come to the same conclusions, what then?

    But let's stop playing the left vs right merry go round. Poor Gus didn't even mention politics in his posts yet was labeled a lefty, as if that somehow discredits his views. It doesn't. It's just attached baggage by a person that can't debate on the merit of their argument alone.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    https://youtu.be/6nAJ4YJheTw

    I didn't watch this one, but something similar that was half as long last year. Yeah, for sure, good stuff. It was all over CBC News and talk shows.

    Yes, both 'sides' can be corrupted. But since the scientists that are funded from both sides come to the same conclusions, what then?

    But let's stop playing the left vs right merry go round. Poor Gus didn't even mention politics in his posts yet was labeled a lefty, as if that somehow discredits his views. It doesn't. It's just attached baggage by a person that can't debate on the merit of their argument alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    https://youtu.be/6nAJ4YJheTw

    I didn't watch this one, but something similar that was half as long last year. Yeah, for sure, good stuff. It was all over CBC News and talk shows.

    Yes, both 'sides' can be corrupted. But since the scientists that are funded from both sides come to the same conclusions, what then?

    But let's stop playing the left vs right merry go round. Poor Gus didn't even mention politics in his posts yet was labeled a lefty, as if that somehow discredits his views. It doesn't. It's just attached baggage Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay a person that can't debate on the merit of their argument alone.
    How can you keep ideology out of it? Boghossian and Lindsay both say it's front and center.

    And they only confirmed what we already knew.

    I don't mind debating the merits of man made global warming. I just want it clear I don't put as much merit on the "consensus of scientist" as other might.

    You should watch the interview. If it were only what they did with those research papers they got published I wouldn't have brought it up. They touch on many, many other subjects. They are very fascinating guys. You should watch it.

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    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
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    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
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  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    https://youtu.be/6nAJ4YJheTw

    I didn't watch this one, but something similar that was half as long last year. Yeah, for sure, good stuff. It was all over CBC News and talk shows.

    Yes, both 'sides' can be corrupted. But since the scientists that are funded from both sides come to the same conclusions, what then?

    But let's stop playing the left vs right merry go round. Poor Gus didn't even mention politics in his posts yet was labeled a lefty, as if that somehow discredits his views. It doesn't. It's just attached baggage by a person that can't debate on the merit of their argument alone.
    Impossible. Because it's very much a Left/Right issue. The Left made it so when they took it up as a cause, and corrupted it...muddied the waters, as they do with every cause they abduct...err...adopt. And so the two cannot be separated, the corruption having saturated the issue completely. As I've mentioned in other posts, if CC is to be taken seriously, the scientific community must denounce the political aspect, rip it out of the hands of the Left and place it on the path of neutral, science-only Science. As it stands, the credibility of the issue has suffered.

    It's not a bad thing to do the best we can for our environment, even when feeling our way in the dark. And, at the risk of beating the horse senseless, the advancement of Technology is the solution to CC. The best interests of humanity and the environment. A win-win, right?. All of the politics, reduction of emissions, etc. is mostly a waste of time that could be put into finding new sources of energy.

    But if we solve the problem, won't the Left have to find a new issue (read club) with which to bludgeon their opponents?

  9. #48
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    So guilt by association? No. That's complete BS. Science doesn't have to do anything other than research and present their findings.

    The position that you guys are taking represents everything that is wrong with our world right now. It's why nothing ever gets done. Your hatred for the other side blinds you to reality.

    This isn't like other wedge issues like abortion or border control. This is about robust scientific principles. It should be an easy one for sides to agree on.

    I completely reject the assertion that some are making. The left taking up the cause does NOT invalidate the science. In fact, the rights denial and in action on the science of climate change is going to invalidate them.

    It's real. It's happening. It's our CO2. But CC isn't our biggest problem. It's people's refusal to accept reality.

  10. #49
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    Has the climate changed, sure, no issue there, it has since the Earth was formed whether you believe naturally or spiritually.

    Should man be good stewards of the planet, definitively, we should use resources wisely and pick up the trash.

    Is man a contributor to climate change, we live here don't we so sure we will have an affect. The question is how much of an affect and how much of it is negative.

    The problem is man is too biased to be objective besides being too ignorant. We do not at this time have the tech to accurately predict a cause and effect when it comes to weather/climate. If we did we could forecast the weather 2 weeks out and not have it change 10 times by the end of that 2 weeks. If we can't project 2 weeks how can we project 2 years let alone 2 decades or 2 score years.

    Another issue is money. You can not legislate climate change out of existence, it will never become extinct. It was said in the UK how much more energy efficient cars and appliances are. That is great for a developed country where half the population can afford those requirement. What about 3rd world countries? Look at China, they had been hoovering just above 3rd world status. Then suddenly they became a industrial force and what happened to their energy consumption and pollution, both skyrocketed. Why? The US went through it already in the 60 & 70's, we learned and moved forward. So why didn't they start from where we are now? Could it be lack of money? Look at history, almost every nation that has went through the throws of becoming a developed nation have went through the same or similar. Until the whole planet get an the same higher level, not taking down the developed countries which is what has been happening, will we not have these issues.

    As to energy, we have clean energy sources available and the technology to use it safely but can not overcome the stigma of a stupid movie. I am talking nuclear. We know how to use it safely, we know how to safely treat and handle the waste. We know how to control it but fear has stopped all reasonable thought on it at least in this country. Isn't it funny that the only country that ever had a atomic bomb dropped on it has embarrassed the technology more than the country that developed it.

    My last comment has to go to mans arrogance. Who knows what temperature this planet should run at? Who knows all the variables that cause the climate to change? Who knows how to make changes to even the known variables without unintended consequences? The answer to all these is NO ONE. So until that person is positively identified, which I don't believe will ever happen we really have no where to go but do our best and live with our consequences.

  11. #50
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    Here is a simple example of the problem with the political side of the CC issue...

    In our business... go into a home (or office)... with a single zone system without VAV...
    And start closing vents...
    "Hey, closing vents in the cold area makes the cold air go to the hot areas!"
    Seems rational and logical... and in the residential side of our business... it is safe to say the majority of un-educated folks believe that to be true... and a few of them will NOT listen when you try to explain why it does not work that way.

    Now if we were to follow the rational of the left... assuming that just because a lot of folks think something and there is a rational/logical explanation... then it must be so...
    One would conclude that indeed, closing vents is the solution.

    But we know it is NOT!

    IMO we need to remember...
    That things are not always as we think they are (or not the way they appear)...
    Quit with the idea that 'my mind is the pinnacle of all intelligence'...
    And start listening to others that may know more than we do...
    Even if we do not like or agree with what they say.

    There is an old saying... said tongue in cheek...
    There is none so wise, as the one that will not listen...
    Obviously... this refers to the idiot that is too smart to hear!

    Off to a couple of calls...

    For some reason...
    Lately we are getting a bunch of folks that think the home AC system should cool to 65*F with < 50%RH... on the hottest day of the year...
    And whining like a 2 year old when they do not get their way.
    And guess what... almost all of these cry-babies fall into one of two categories;
    *Low income HO's, or renters!
    Hmmm... seems to support the comments above...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  12. #51
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    Gustavhorna had an agenda from the very first post in this thread.

    I always get a kick out of it when people will say something like . . . Look at all of the ice that is melting at the North Pole. But completely discount that the ice is growing at the South Pole.

    It goes on and on.

    What people seam to forget is that this planet of ours is very dynamic and ever changing.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    Gustavhorna had an agenda from the very first post in this thread.

    I always get a kick out of it when people will say something like . . . Look at all of the ice that is melting at the North Pole. But completely discount that the ice is growing at the South Pole.

    It goes on and on.

    What people seam to forget is that this planet of ours is very dynamic and ever changing.
    Yep. So dynamic that it doesn't take much to change it.

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