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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    The thread title is; Does Climate Change Really Happen?

    Looks like you just switched sides and are now the climate change skeptic.


    I don't have a dog in this fight. Climate change is not an issue with me so I have nothing to prove. Gus created this thread and then proceeded to make claims man is responsible for climate change.

    I was unaware that anyone denies there was an ice age (climate change) until you decided to challenge it. So, now you seem to have switched over to be skeptical of any climate change in the past.

    You are either disingenuous, pretty ignorant or a dishonest debater. Once again, we have someone trying to reverse the burden of proof when they can't defend their own claim.

    This is not my debate. I am only asking questions regarding the claim of the original poster. Convince me!
    My claim that atmospheric CO2 affects the Earth's temperature has exactly the same legitimacy as your claim to the ice age. Which I also believe happened.

    A disingenuous debater is one who tells the other person what they believe and then ask them to defend that position.

  2. #132
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    He also made the claim man never landed on the moon.

    That pretty well says it all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    The thread title is; Does Climate Change Really Happen?

    Looks like you just switched sides and are now the climate change skeptic.


    I don't have a dog in this fight. Climate change is not an issue with me so I have nothing to prove. Gus created this thread and then proceeded to make claims man is responsible for climate change.

    I was unaware that anyone denies there was an ice age (climate change) until you decided to challenge it. So, now you seem to have switched over to be skeptical of any climate change in the past.

    You are either disingenuous, pretty ignorant or a dishonest debater. Once again, we have someone trying to reverse the burden of proof when they can't defend their own claim.

    This is not my debate. I am only asking questions regarding the claim of the original poster. Convince me!
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

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  4. #133
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    For the record, I do think nearly all of you guys are good stewards of the planet!! We've done this useless dance before.

    Just because you don't accept the current science of climate change doesn't make you a polluter. Just the same, just because I'm a believer doesn't mean I think taxes and forced behaviour is the way forward.

    I don't want to see higher taxes. I want to see quality cost effective options to replace the high emission products we have now. If a better product is there, people will choose it.

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  6. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    My claim that atmospheric CO2 affects the Earth's temperature has exactly the same legitimacy as your claim to the ice age. Which I also believe happened.

    A disingenuous debater is one who tells the other person what they believe and then ask them to defend that position.
    And, I never denied that atmospheric CO2 affects the Earth's temperature either. The central issue is the role mankind plays in climate change. This is where I become a skeptic.

    At no time did I or have I used the straw man technique in this debate. But, numerous times others (Gus and you specifically) have committed the fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. I don't easily fall for logical fallacy techniques.

    The burden of proof remains on Gus to back his now, numerous climate change claims. I remain the skeptic awaiting solid answers. My opinion is this is mostly a manufactured issue.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  7. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    For the record, I do think nearly all of you guys are good stewards of the planet!! We've done this useless dance before.

    Just because you don't accept the current science of climate change doesn't make you a polluter. Just the same, just because I'm a believer doesn't mean I think taxes and forced behaviour is the way forward.

    I don't want to see higher taxes. I want to see quality cost effective options to replace the high emission products we have now. If a better product is there, people will choose it.
    Lahrs, we on the same page now.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

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  9. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    And, I never denied that atmospheric CO2 affects the Earth's temperature either. The central issue is the role mankind plays in climate change. This is where I become a skeptic.

    At no time did I or have I used the straw man technique in this debate. But, numerous times others (Gus and you specifically) have committed the fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. I don't easily fall for logical fallacy techniques.

    The burden of proof remains on Gus to back his now, numerous climate change claims. I remain the skeptic awaiting solid answers. My opinion is this is mostly a manufactured issue.
    Yeah, I purposely flipped the burden of proof around. Sorry. The point I was working towards, at what point is the burden on the person that doesn't believe what is a known reality. Maybe CC is too contentious, but where is that tipping point?

    I say the Earth is a sphere. 'You' say the Earth is flat. Who has to prove their position?

    I totally get why you guys question everything, especially due to your domestic politics. But at some point it doesn't matter who prints the book, the words are true.

    Where is that tipping point?

    Speaking of a flat Earth, this is a really good read on the relative accuracy of science. This isn't a trap, it can be applied to both sides of the debate. Long but worth it: https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscie...ityofwrong.htm

  10. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    He also made the claim man never landed on the moon.

    That pretty well says it all.
    you didn't understand the irony! My effort with this statement was to try to find out if you think of NASA as a reputable organization or not - otherwise how I can discuss climate change with you, when lot of the evidence comes from NASA data & satellites.

  11. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    So guilt by association? No. That's complete BS. Science doesn't have to do anything other than research and present their findings.

    The position that you guys are taking represents everything that is wrong with our world right now. It's why nothing ever gets done. Your hatred for the other side blinds you to reality.

    This isn't like other wedge issues like abortion or border control. This is about robust scientific principles. It should be an easy one for sides to agree on.

    I completely reject the assertion that some are making. The left taking up the cause does NOT invalidate the science. In fact, the rights denial and in action on the science of climate change is going to invalidate them.

    It's real. It's happening. It's our CO2. But CC isn't our biggest problem. It's people's refusal to accept reality.

    It's not hatred, it's distrust and, subsequently, disdain. And, although some of the science is objective and neutral, some of it is politically driven. The Left's participation makes it difficult to trust the science. And, let's face it...it's the Liberal politicians who are the most vocal group where CC is concerned, and the producers of wacky (insane) solutions, like the Green New Deal.

    CC and the Left are inseparable, and yes, like it or not, CC has a serious credibility problem because of the association.

    I don't believe most here are saying that CC isn't real, or that humanity shouldn't act responsibly with our resources. What I'm saying is that, until I hear viable, doable solutions from Science, I'm biding my time. These wacky Liberal politicians leading the way are damaging the cause. Not only because they are not to be trusted, but also because their conclusions and solutions are not to be trusted.

    I understand your frustration at the 'CC Resistance' you encounter, but there is a reasoning to the resistance. The CC crowd needs to get their sheets together, kick out the Left and come up with real conclusions (not 'The World's going to end in 12 years!') and practical, workable solutions. Stop allowing the idiots to discredit the CC efforts. And, again, New Technology and energy sources.

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  13. #139
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    btw it is silly to argue with "climate changed before" stuff. Can you understand that some effect can have 2 or more different causes?

    You can get flu and you get high fever right?
    You can get pox and you get high fever

    But it doesnt mean pox is always the cause of your high temperature.

    Same for the historic climate change and our current problem. Different causes, same (or: similar) outcome.
    The point is: IF we are the cause for current CC and the result is not favorable to us, then better back off.

  14. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    What caused the ice age? Prove it happened. You made the claim. You prove it.

    (I have an end game. My debating is fine. )
    Your debating skills have acquired the highest level of absurdity.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    “They can’t do anything about it unless they start shooting people, and presumably they won’t do that.” Protester & confirmed idiot.

    "I am not here to rescue you, I am bringing you along for emergency rations" Quark.

    "This is me, I'm not at home. If you'd like to reach me, leave me alone." Sherl Crow

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

  15. #141
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    Now I think I should go back to some basic questions:

    are you aware what are correlations?
    are you aware that correlation between two functions in an experiment is a HINT (not yet a proof) that one may depend on the other?

    1. There is clear correlation between the amount of fossil fuels burned and atmospheric co2 levels
    2. measurements clearly show the extra co2 in the atmosphere is coming from fossil fuels (combustion)
    3. there is clear correlation between the co2 levels and climate getting warmer

    (3) is not yet a proof but as I mentioned there are other possible mayor climate influences that we can exclude. There is no hint whatsover that the Sun is somehow getting more luminous, not for the last 100 years. There are no hints of changing planetary albedo. So, when the only correlation with temperature you have is the concentration of co2, then it is a mayor candidate for the cause of global warming.

  16. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    For the record, I do think nearly all of you guys are good stewards of the planet!! We've done this useless dance before.

    Just because you don't accept the current science of climate change doesn't make you a polluter. Just the same, just because I'm a believer doesn't mean I think taxes and forced behaviour is the way forward.

    I don't want to see higher taxes. I want to see quality cost effective options to replace the high emission products we have now. If a better product is there, people will choose it.
    Now you are making sense, and I agree with you.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    “They can’t do anything about it unless they start shooting people, and presumably they won’t do that.” Protester & confirmed idiot.

    "I am not here to rescue you, I am bringing you along for emergency rations" Quark.

    "This is me, I'm not at home. If you'd like to reach me, leave me alone." Sherl Crow

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustavhorna View Post
    by the same logic it is a claim to say these rocks are from the Moon. Please prove me they are from the Moon.
    You're not helping yourself with statements like these.

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