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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    The govt sets price and profit caps on other life sustaining goods like electricity, water, nat gas and we are ok with that.

    There are many groups like SCAN that will give a Medicare recipient full medical coverage for the 80% that Medicare pays. So even 80% of the Medicare set price is enough to run healthcare centers.
    Ok so let's run with that if you like.
    Deduct 20 percent from the total we spend now.
    Now start adding back .. as people will go to the doctor at they don't have an outrageous deductible.
    Now add all the uninsured together... Insure them and watch them start going to the hospital.
    The 20 percent is now gone and has shifted the other way.
    ...

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Hey GA, I'm hopping on my bike right now for a quick 20m. If you were a little more specific I could respond.
    Just for fun... who is doing the chores around the house... while GC plays???


    Sorry GC...
    However you just made the point GA was making...

    You want to act like you do not see the grey in the middle...
    However reading your posts regularly, it is obvious you DO!

    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Just for fun... who is doing the chores around the house... while GC plays???


    Sorry GC...
    However you just made the point GA was making...

    You want to act like you do not see the grey in the middle...
    However reading your posts regularly, it is obvious you DO!

    Hey GA, 20 miles only takes one hour. Besides, my wife will typically stay in bed watching murder reenactment shows or HGTV until I get back. Then I have to take her out to lunch, which is what I'm about to do now. With as many of those shows that she has watched, she could easily kill me and get away with it.

    As for the grey areas, I don't want the govt taking over healthcare. I just see them as the only entity capable of forcing the prices down like they do with Medicare. They are also the only ones that can force everyone to contribute to healthcare through taxes. As long as we need health insurance, we will not use our cash to pay for that appendectomy. When we only pay the first $5K deductible, we will never care what the total bill is.

  4. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    Well said,
    Americans have been so convinced or brainwashed into believing universal healthcare is complete Socialism & against our Capitalistic way of life that they can't even consider its benefits. No one disputes that we have a right to fire or police protection & we all know those services are paid for by our tax dollars. Talk about having a right to health care & the warning signs go up against Socialism or Communism. Just to be clear, I'm not using the word "right" as meaning a freedom for those who like to confuse it with a constitutional right.
    Untrue Gary. I've looked at single payer around the world. Some countries do it slightly better like Japan and Australia. But those instances have more to do with the culture, immigration laws, demographics, etc....

    I look with both eyes open and despite the whitewash treatment it gets from media, it's really not a good option either. Is it slightly better than what we have now? Maybe. I know I would personally pay more than the insane amount I pay right now. My daughter would fair better. But there are better ways.

    I've noticed a pattern that single payer proponents have a habit of not commenting on great points that people bring up. You guys conveniently ignore them like they never happened. It seems like you internally deny these facts and realities.

    I just don't get that mentality. Truth is truth. And facts and truth will support and argue against an opinion. Accept them, acknowledge them, weigh them all into forming your opinion. And if new facts or truths emerge, acknowledge their reality and weigh them in. And they may add up to change your opinion. Maybe not. Especially with something as complex as healthcare. We uncover and learn new things all the time. I'm constantly uncovering things or reading opinions here and elsewhere I either didn't know or didn't put enough weight on. And I have modified my opinions slightly over the last few years due to some things I've come to understand. But you guys don't seem to do that. I say this because great points, facts and truths have been posted here and more often than not you guys won't even acknowledge them if they don't support single payer implementation.

    Case in point. You support single payer because you are concerned about a minority of people who will not get care or have to declare bankruptcy due to an unforseen expense. That's a reality with our system. But you ignore the increased number of people who suffer and die at a higher rate due to wait times or flat out denial in single payer systems. And these decisions are either made by bureaucrats based on age and health of the patient or simply lack of access causing longer wait times. I'd say your concern about financial stress and the very rare instance where someone doesn't get care here due to their lack of insurance/ability to pay is dwarfed by suffering and dying due to wait times and denials. I've weighed both negatives. I'd rather declair bankruptcy and start over vs watching a loved one die. You may feel different, but at least acknowledge this reality.

    Add into the reality above that there would be less financially burdened people here if we put consumers in charge of costs and dropped costs for everyone. We could decrease the numbers of financially burdened and uninsured by consumers controlling costs while not increasing the numbers of people denied care or increasing lack of access to care.

    Another one is you really haven't acknowledged is 70% of innovation and advancement in healthcare comes from the USA. That changes dramatically if America adopts single payer. How much? It would be impossible to predict how much. But innovation will decline. How many lives worldwide will that affect negatively? In 10 years will that mean millions will die of some disease who would have otherwise survived? Not sure. But it will be a definitive number. Gary, a larger number of humans will suffer and/or die that would not have if we adopt single payer. And it will be a lage number.

    Also, innovation builds on itself. It's like compounding interest. You make an advancement and that advancement builds on itself and leads to new advancements. And so on. So there will be a large scale lack of life saving medications and innovation in 10, 20.... 100 years from today if we adopt single payer. This is my opinion if course. But it's an educated opinion based in solid logic. It would be hard to argue against it, and that's why you guys ignore it.

    The lefts knee jerk reaction because "We have to do something!" has historically backfired. Fixing one problem while closing your eyes to the dozen problems that it will create is a trademark of the left.

    You guys have patent protections on stupidity and adopting policy that creates hundreds of problems in a flailing attempt to fix one problem. One needs to look no further than the petri dish known as California to see what jumping headlong into leftist "solutions" without looking gets you. All the garbage enacted in California all fell under the same emotion based government "help" as the single payer "solution".

    And the funny part is California looked into single payer a few years back. They were convinced it was a solution as you are right now. Even those crazy bastards quietly dropped it once they started adding up the numbers and looking at the stark realities.

    If it were remotely possible that single payer was a better option, California would have moved forward with it.

    BTW, the fact of California and Maine scrapping their plans for single payer after they looked into it is another reality you have ignored. The press ignores this fact as you do. It's like it never happened.

  5. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    There you go with the all or nothing approach again. Stop conflating two SEPARATE issues. If you polled every US citizen, I'm sure you would have near unanimous consent for public roads, services and defense. You have nowhere near that support for single payer.
    Captain Straw Man likes to toss out public roads, military, police, ETC. as a shared tax funded expense.

    But what he either fails to realize or purposefully misrepresents is, a person cannot have his own set of roads or his own private millitary. So it needs to be a shared expense.....And it's and unfortunate reality. Because a consumer financed personal set of roads to get to work and your favorite restaurants would cost much less to build than government having to do it.

    This is luckily not the case with healthcare. We can purchase it personally for ourselves. I don't need to share my healthcare with my neighbor. I have to share the roads with him.

    Captain Straw Man strikes out again in his attempt to stop a progressing discussion.

    By the way, I have made this point to him dozens of times in the past. And this reality destroys the point he's attempting to make. Yet he keeps bringing it up.

    Here is a fact that shows the mess of government financed programs and projects.

    "The existing Washington State Route 520 floating bridge spans Lake Washington and connects the cities of Seattle and Bellevue. It was built in 1963 and cost about $245 million in today’s dollars. The cost of the proposed replacement will be about 19 times more. Officials have already spent more money ($400 million in 2011) on planning and design than the total cost of building the first bridge, adjusted for inflation."

    Unfortunately we have no choice. We do with healthcare. But he's saying the above mess is what we should adopt in healthcare when we don't have to.

    I'm actually surprised he didn't state he has asked his stupid question before and no had an answer to it.

    But don't worry. He will try and make the point again in a month.

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Captain Straw Man likes to toss out public roads, military, police, ETC. as a shared tax funded expense.

    But what he either fails to realize or purposefully misrepresents is, a person cannot have his own set of roads or his own private millitary. So it needs to be a shared expense.....And it's and unfortunate reality. Because a consumer financed personal set of roads to get to work and your favorite restaurants would cost much less to build than government having to do it.

    This is luckily not the case with healthcare. We can purchase it personally for ourselves. I don't need to share my healthcare with my neighbor. I have to share the roads with him.

    Captain Straw Man strikes out again in his attempt to stop a progressing discussion.

    By the way, I have made this point to him dozens of times in the past. And this reality destroys the point he's attempting to make. Yet he keeps bringing it up.

    Here is a fact that shows the mess of government financed programs and projects.

    "The existing Washington State Route 520 floating bridge spans Lake Washington and connects the cities of Seattle and Bellevue. It was built in 1963 and cost about $245 million in today’s dollars. The cost of the proposed replacement will be about 19 times more. Officials have already spent more money ($400 million in 2011) on planning and design than the total cost of building the first bridge, adjusted for inflation."

    Unfortunately we have no choice. We do with healthcare. But he's saying the above mess is what we should adopt in healthcare when we don't have to.

    I'm actually surprised he didn't state he has asked his stupid question before and no had an answer to it.

    But don't worry. He will try and make the point again in a month.
    I like that nickname for GC...
    CSM for short...

    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  7. #72
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    Here is a decent explanation of it. It's a discussion of what's the best way to finance things and touches on the differences and the best ways to finwce them. It pretty much states what I've explained to CSM a dozen times. That unfortunately we can't use the powerful laws of consumerism and supply and demand to finance and control costs of some public projects and services. And we unfortunately have to rely on public funding such as taxation, levies, bond measures, etc.

    But the fact is I've explained this reality of economics to CSM in the past. Several times, in fact. He's either incapable of understanding it or unwilling to look at it with an open mind and acknowledge its reality. Or a combination of both. So when he brings it up again in a month, ignore it. It's been asked and answered..... again.



    "Question:
    Some goods and services are provided by the government (e.g., mail delivery and schools) while others are provided by private business firms (e.g., grocery stores and dry cleaning). Economically, what goods and services would be best provided by the public sector and which are best provided by the private sector?

    Answer:
    Economists distinguish broadly among three types of goods along the private to public continuum. Purely private goods are purchased and used by individuals and families. Another way of explaining a private good is to say that my use (or consumption, in economist language) excludes your ability to consume the same good. Food is the best understood example. Food is eaten by one person. A family may purchase and cook for the family and their friends. People may share food with friends or with needy families through food banks, but only one person can eat a particular serving of food. Because private goods are purchased and consumed, traditional supply and demand analysis describes the market for private goods very well. The intersection of private demand curves and production supply curves correctly predicts the appropriate market price and quantity.

    Public goods are at the opposite end of the continuum. Classic examples include national defense and the internet. The characteristic that distinguishes a pure public good from a pure private good is that one person’s use does not diminish the ability of someone else to use the same good at the same time. You and I are equally protected by U.S. national defense. My consumption does not exclude your consumption. For that reason, traditional supply and demand analysis does not correctly identify how much defense to “produce” and how much each person should pay for his or her defense. In fact, since no business could charge each person for their defense, there is no market mechanism to identify how much each individual is willing to pay. Economists generally agree that pure public goods are properly provided by government and paid for by taxes. There are complicated ways to discern how much each person is willing to pay, but it is much simpler and more acceptable politically to use the tax system."
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  8. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    Not so much as disowning people or looking down on them...but where's the personal responsibility? The drive to be better than you are? Your debt to society, a cog in the machine? We all must live within our means; the guy or girl that earns a degree in engineering should live a better life than the one who flunked out of high school and gets drunk every day.
    I agree the drive to do better is a good motivating force but not everyone has that drive. As for personal responsibility, I don't see that lacking for someone who is willing to do a menial job to make ends meet as opposed to not working at all. And when it comes to paying a debt to society, a lot of respected & wealthy people contribute nothing to society. They make money for themselves & investors & produce nothing & yet they may be considered people to look up to. One thing I will say is that money may not make you happy but not having money can make you sad<g>
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    I agree the drive to do better is a good motivating force but not everyone has that drive. As for personal responsibility, I don't see that lacking for someone who is willing to do a menial job to make ends meet as opposed to not working at all. And when it comes to paying a debt to society, a lot of respected & wealthy people contribute nothing to society. They make money for themselves & investors & produce nothing & yet they may be considered people to look up to. One thing I will say is that money may not make you happy but not having money can make you sad<g>
    Respectfully Gary...

    That drive (within reason)... is a choice... it is not born in.

    A person that was born into a home of loosers... decides to better themselves...
    And a person that was born with a silver spoon in their mouth... becomes a liability to the family and society.

    It is a choice... and there needs to be consequences for making the wrong choice...
    Those consequences... are what motives a person to make the right choices!

    You wanna eat... you work... simple!

    Probably too simple for intellectual minds though...
    Grin

    And waaaaay too complicated for a liberal polecat to agree with!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  10. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Untrue Gary. I've looked at single payer around the world. Some countries do it slightly better like Japan and Australia. But those instances have more to do with the culture, immigration laws, demographics, etc....

    I look with both eyes open and despite the whitewash treatment it gets from media, it's really not a good option either. Is it slightly better than what we have now? Maybe. I know I would personally pay more than the insane amount I pay right now. My daughter would fair better. But there are better ways.

    I've noticed a pattern that single payer proponents have a habit of not commenting on great points that people bring up. You guys conveniently ignore them like they never happened. It seems like you internally deny these facts and realities.

    I just don't get that mentality. Truth is truth. And facts and truth will support and argue against an opinion. Accept them, acknowledge them, weigh them all into forming your opinion. And if new facts or truths emerge, acknowledge their reality and weigh them in. And they may add up to change your opinion. Maybe not. Especially with something as complex as healthcare. We uncover and learn new things all the time. I'm constantly uncovering things or reading opinions here and elsewhere I either didn't know or didn't put enough weight on. And I have modified my opinions slightly over the last few years due to some things I've come to understand. But you guys don't seem to do that. I say this because great points, facts and truths have been posted here and more often than not you guys won't even acknowledge them if they don't support single payer implementation.

    Case in point. You support single payer because you are concerned about a minority of people who will not get care or have to declare bankruptcy due to an unforseen expense. That's a reality with our system. But you ignore the increased number of people who suffer and die at a higher rate due to wait times or flat out denial in single payer systems. And these decisions are either made by bureaucrats based on age and health of the patient or simply lack of access causing longer wait times. I'd say your concern about financial stress and the very rare instance where someone doesn't get care here due to their lack of insurance/ability to pay is dwarfed by suffering and dying due to wait times and denials. I've weighed both negatives. I'd rather declair bankruptcy and start over vs watching a loved one die. You may feel different, but at least acknowledge this reality.

    Add into the reality above that there would be less financially burdened people here if we put consumers in charge of costs and dropped costs for everyone. We could decrease the numbers of financially burdened and uninsured by consumers controlling costs while not increasing the numbers of people denied care or increasing lack of access to care.

    Another one is you really haven't acknowledged is 70% of innovation and advancement in healthcare comes from the USA. That changes dramatically if America adopts single payer. How much? It would be impossible to predict how much. But innovation will decline. How many lives worldwide will that affect negatively? In 10 years will that mean millions will die of some disease who would have otherwise survived? Not sure. But it will be a definitive number. Gary, a larger number of humans will suffer and/or die that would not have if we adopt single payer. And it will be a lage number.

    Also, innovation builds on itself. It's like compounding interest. You make an advancement and that advancement builds on itself and leads to new advancements. And so on. So there will be a large scale lack of life saving medications and innovation in 10, 20.... 100 years from today if we adopt single payer. This is my opinion if course. But it's an educated opinion based in solid logic. It would be hard to argue against it, and that's why you guys ignore it.

    The lefts knee jerk reaction because "We have to do something!" has historically backfired. Fixing one problem while closing your eyes to the dozen problems that it will create is a trademark of the left.

    You guys have patent protections on stupidity and adopting policy that creates hundreds of problems in a flailing attempt to fix one problem. One needs to look no further than the petri dish known as California to see what jumping headlong into leftist "solutions" without looking gets you. All the garbage enacted in California all fell under the same emotion based government "help" as the single payer "solution".

    And the funny part is California looked into single payer a few years back. They were convinced it was a solution as you are right now. Even those crazy bastards quietly dropped it once they started adding up the numbers and looking at the stark realities.

    If it were remotely possible that single payer was a better option, California would have moved forward with it.

    BTW, the fact of California and Maine scrapping their plans for single payer after they looked into it is another reality you have ignored. The press ignores this fact as you do. It's like it never happened.
    I haven't ignored the fact that when actual numbers are discussed & estimated for a single payer system covering everyone that it scares any politician into scrapping the idea. The fact is that we are already spending the money but not everyone feels it the same or gets the same healthcare benefits. Whether going to single payer would cut or increase costs remains to be seen but I tend to think it would cut costs. As for people dying from waiting for treatment, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I would bet a lot more people in the US die from not getting proper treatment because of money than those in other countries do because of wait times. I do have to admit that quality of care is my biggest concern if we ever go to a single payer system. I'm not discounting the possibility of quality going down but I'm also considering the possibility of more & more people getting no care if something is not done to correct our current system. I know you're a firm believer in letting the market work things out but IMO healthcare is too important to let the market do its thing.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

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  12. #76
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    Sadly... this whole discussion wraps around the idea that healthcare is a right...
    It is NOT!
    It is something one has to work to pay for...
    Like the rest of personal consumables.

    Sorry... someone had to say it...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  13. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Sadly... this whole discussion wraps around the idea that healthcare is a right...
    It is NOT!
    It is something one has to work to pay for...
    Like the rest of personal consumables.

    Sorry... someone had to say it...
    Yup, health care is not a right. We need a public debate on "What Constitutes A Right" Seems the left avoids that debate. They keep adding and adding rights. I maintain that if someone else has to pay for it, it is not a right. Rights are more fundamental than that.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  14. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Yup, health care is not a right. We need a public debate on "What Constitutes A Right" Seems the left avoids that debate. They keep adding and adding rights. I maintain that if someone else has to pay for it, it is not a right. Rights are more fundamental than that.
    IMO, that is a good definition of what a right is...

    However a lefty that was trying to spin and blur the issue...
    May say someone gave their life for others freedom...
    However the rebuttal... is they CHOSE to do that...
    Govt forcing a program on the public, is not voluntary.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

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