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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    Absolutely. I have always argued for a system of basic care provided universally with additional coverage available on the open market even before the ACA. Health care in the US was an even more fragmented mish-mash of federal,state,local government plans along side the private systems of PPO, HMO, high/low deductible, high/low copay, in network,out of network, HSA eligible/ineligible etc. before the ACA. The ACA attempted to consolidate and simplify it all and failed.

    The main reason for people not wanting universal health care is not financial it is philosophical. We are all rugged individuals who lift ourselves up by our own boot straps while singing yippee kyay here in the US and we don't want no guvment socialized medicine in the land of the free and the brave.

    Even if such a system makes sense and would be a better use of our tax and private insurance dollars.
    Well said,
    Americans have been so convinced or brainwashed into believing universal healthcare is complete Socialism & against our Capitalistic way of life that they can't even consider its benefits. No one disputes that we have a right to fire or police protection & we all know those services are paid for by our tax dollars. Talk about having a right to health care & the warning signs go up against Socialism or Communism. Just to be clear, I'm not using the word "right" as meaning a freedom for those who like to confuse it with a constitutional right.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    The govt forcing a private agency to perform services at prices the govt sets should have never happened...
    The govt sets price and profit caps on other life sustaining goods like electricity, water, nat gas and we are ok with that.

    There are many groups like SCAN that will give a Medicare recipient full medical coverage for the 80% that Medicare pays. So even 80% of the Medicare set price is enough to run healthcare centers.

  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    Healthcare costs total for 2017 public and private .. 3.5 trillion dollars.
    When we divide that by the US population in 2017 .. equals 10,736 dollars per person on average for health care... Yes the figures are right. For a family of four that's over 40 grand.
    The older people are raising up the average cost per person to this insane amount.
    https://www.crfb.org/papers/american...federal-budget
    There is no way every family of four is paying an average of $40K for healthcare, so those numbers are bogus.

    When they throw out numbers like $3.5 trillion, they should not include Medicare or the VA as part of that figure...but I bet they do just to exaggerate the costs. We are not suggesting blending the Medicare and VA systems into a new 'Medicare for All System.' This is how bad math is used to misrepresent an issue because people are not detail oriented so its hard to catch them at their lies.

    They will throw out numbers like $3.5T and leave you with a buzz-term threat like "do you want to start paying $40K a year?" Such BS!

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    I guess that's where you & I differ. I don't think people flipping burgers or stocking shelves are any less important than the guy driving a Mercedes making a million a year as a stock broker. Many years ago a guy once said to me the it would be a hell of a world without musicians & I replied that it would be a hell of a world without garbage collectors too. We all want the people we care about to do well in society but we normally don't disown them if they don't. One of the sad realities we have in this country is people tend to judge others by how much money they think they have & their social status. All I can say is its a mistake to do so.
    Not so much as disowning people or looking down on them...but where's the personal responsibility? The drive to be better than you are? Your debt to society, a cog in the machine? We all must live within our means; the guy or girl that earns a degree in engineering should live a better life than the one who flunked out of high school and gets drunk every day.

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    Not so much as disowning people or looking down on them...but where's the personal responsibility? The drive to be better than you are? Your debt to society, a cog in the machine? We all must live within our means; the guy or girl that earns a degree in engineering should live a better life than the one who flunked out of high school and gets drunk every day.
    I have a better idea. Let's prohibit non-tax payers from driving or riding as passengers on our publicly funded streets and highways. That will force them to get a job. And the police and fire should only serve tax payers.

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    ...This thread is an attempt to prevent the rash of healthcare discussion in other threads. Carry over from Civility thread...

    What is the mission statement of ARPs Healthcare Reform? Funny name, but I'm being serious. High quality accessible healthcare for all? Less money in politicians pockets, more in ours? Freedom to choose? Safety net for the elderly and people in need?

    The deregulation of insurance was brought up. Let's call it Step 1 in the ARPHR?

    Why was insurance regulated in the first place? What problems were trying to be solved with regulation? How can we ensure we don't end up at the same place we are now in another 50 years?

    We have a starting point, the system sucks. We have options to fix it. But there is alot of detail in the middle I'm trying to work through.
    As much as you and I disagree...

    This is a GREAT idea... having a separate health care thread, so other threads do not go off course.

    My thoughts:
    *There must be an attitude of 'healing the patient comes first'... that means: find the problem and SOLVE it, do not just put them on drugs for the rest of their lives, treat the patient as a customer not a lab rat, quit marketing fear, quit with the 'how much can I cheat to make more $$$ attitude', etc.
    Back when, this was called the hippocratic oath... it has turned into the hypocritic business model.
    *WIDE open competition!!! And accept that the best costs more... that is just life!
    *The consumer needs to have skin in the game... meaning everything from a flu shot to open heart surgery, the consumer needs to be paying for some of it... That way, the consumer will be encouraged to shop around!
    *We need major/catestrophic only policies... we need choices as to what kind of health care insurance we can buy!
    *We need less of a connection between: The AMA - big pharma - the FDA - insurance co's. We all know that what procedures are prescribed has more to do with profit than healing... that MUST change!
    *And last: IMO we need insurance companies (not just policies, companies) that do NOT cover things like: abortions, cosmetic surgery, vein surgery, etc... frivilous things that are not part of healing someone that is sick!
    *One more... we need to redefine disease: having spider veins showing on your legs, is NOT a disease! Getting hep-C IS a disease! We need to get this cleared up!

    OK... that should start a firestorm...

    GA has a bunch of stuff to do around the house... will come back and see what you guys have figured out...
    Grin
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

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  8. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I have a better idea. Let's prohibit non-tax payers from driving or riding as passengers on our publicly funded streets and highways. That will force them to get a job. And the police and fire should only serve tax payers.
    There you go with the all or nothing approach again. Stop conflating two SEPARATE issues. If you polled every US citizen, I'm sure you would have near unanimous consent for public roads, services and defense. You have nowhere near that support for single payer.

  9. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    There you go with the all or nothing approach again. Stop conflating two SEPARATE issues. If you polled every US citizen, I'm sure you would have near unanimous consent for public roads, services and defense. You have nowhere near that support for single payer.
    My comment about roads was not serious. It was to show that we live in a very 'socialized system.' We don't want single payer because healthcare, health insurance and big pharma has told us not to want it. Simple as that.

    Let's hear those same entities tell us to abolish 'socialized' Medicare so they can feed off them too.

  10. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    There you go with the all or nothing approach again. Stop conflating two SEPARATE issues. If you polled every US citizen, I'm sure you would have near unanimous consent for public roads, services and defense. You have nowhere near that support for single payer.
    While GC likes to post all or nothing solutions...
    He also likes the grey in the middle when payment is coming out of his pocket...

    Which leads me to think GC understands the grey in the middle a lot more than he lets on!!!

    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  11. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    While GC likes to post all or nothing solutions...
    He also likes the grey in the middle when payment is coming out of his pocket...

    Which leads me to think GC understands the grey in the middle a lot more than he lets on!!!

    Hey GA, I'm hopping on my bike right now for a quick 20m. If you were a little more specific I could respond.

  12. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    There is no way every family of four is paying an average of $40K for healthcare, so those numbers are bogus.

    When they throw out numbers like $3.5 trillion, they should not include Medicare or the VA as part of that figure...but I bet they do just to exaggerate the costs. We are not suggesting blending the Medicare and VA systems into a new 'Medicare for All System.' This is how bad math is used to misrepresent an issue because people are not detail oriented so its hard to catch them at their lies.

    They will throw out numbers like $3.5T and leave you with a buzz-term threat like "do you want to start paying $40K a year?" Such BS!
    I did not say that is what the average is paying.. I said when we divide total health costs divided by the number of citizens ..it comes out to over 10 grand a person..that equates to over 40 grand for a family of four.
    The point is if we all had govt single payer .. then that would be the average burden.
    You can not exclude any agencies related to healthcare in order to determine how much we spend on healthcare.
    ...

  13. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    The idea that Medicare says you have to do the service & accept what we will pay is not completely correct. Hospitals & doctors accept Medicare like they do with any other insurance & that is to make money. If it is not in their financial interests to accept Medicare then they wouldn't do it. It's hard to find a hospital that doesn't take Medicare but there are some & I'm sure they have their reasons. Around 40 percent of hospital patients are on Medicare so even if Medicare doesn't pay as much as the hospitals want, they still don't want to lose that guaranteed income. There may also be perks the hospitals get from the government that we don't know about that they might lose if they refuse to accept Medicare. Its not uncommon to hear about a doctor no longer accepting Medicare patients but I haven't heard of a hospital doing that. This is not to be confused with the laws where hospitals can't turn down anyone in the emergency room or throw people out of the hospital when they can't pay because that has nothing to do with Medicare.
    You just made the argument that single payer won't work then
    ...

  14. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    You just made the argument that single payer won't work then
    Exactly what I thought when I read garyed's post. He just negated his own position on health care.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

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