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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    And to think just a few years ago all these folks were getting their panties in a twist over supposed death panels. Now they want to base an individual's health and well being on genetics, lifestyle and available dollars.

    My how times have changed.
    To whom are you referring? Am I on that list of yours?
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post

    The main reason for people not wanting universal health care is not financial it is philosophical. We are all rugged individuals who lift ourselves up by our own boot straps while singing yippee kyay here in the US and we don't want no guvment socialized medicine in the land of the free and the brave.
    I don't think universal will magically solve the problems. Ideas like Brian's have merit, I'm really trying to understand it better so I can have an informed opinion.

    But it does sound like there is a philosophical difference between Canada and the US. People like to just call it "socialism". I believe it is much deeper than that.

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  4. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    That's close to what I'm saying. Amazing how I get argued with by some that should be cheering on a great idea and expanding from it. I think its definitely workable.

    But, alas the crippling emotions of the left get in the way of listening and thinking.
    I dig the co-op idea Brian. It's basically regional single-payer. But let's not use that dirty term.

    It's the getting from here to there and the infinite details in between. From all reports, ACA is a disaster. I'd hate to see you guys go through it again.

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  6. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Like I said, do a blood test and check the bank balance. If they don't check out, then well the cyanid and dumpster are out back.
    That's not an argument, just a smart-aleck comment. I'm assuming it will be a lot less after the "network discount" from my insurer. So basically, I would be paying that negotiated rate in cash without the must-have insurance.

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  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    And to think just a few years ago all these folks were getting their panties in a twist over supposed death panels. Now they want to base an individual's health and well being on genetics, lifestyle and available dollars.

    My how times have changed.
    Rationing care and not being able to afford it are two separate things, don't blur the lines.

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  10. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    Rationing care and not being able to afford it are two separate things, don't blur the lines.
    Netsalt should look up NHS N.I.C.E. And read the news and op pieces written about them. Things like denying dialysis if you are over 55 or 60. There are lots of brutally harsh pieces written about them.

    But anyway, one thing I'd like to point out since netsalt brought up hypocrisy.... What happened to the left's battle cry "MY BODY, MY CHOICE!!!" "KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY _____!!"

    Do they not understand that's exactly what single payer will do?
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GorillaTight View Post
    Gary, you keep acting like the US is Mad Max. Have you been listening to any REAL news? As far as unemployment, the stock market, household income. Not only do you have your head in the sand, you're blindfolded and wearing earmuffs to boot. People that make poor decisions should suffer the consequences. NO ONE should make a livable wage flipping burgers. What about their responsibility to society? What good are 40 year old people whose best skills are flipping burgers or stocking shelves?
    I guess that's where you & I differ. I don't think people flipping burgers or stocking shelves are any less important than the guy driving a Mercedes making a million a year as a stock broker. Many years ago a guy once said to me the it would be a hell of a world without musicians & I replied that it would be a hell of a world without garbage collectors too. We all want the people we care about to do well in society but we normally don't disown them if they don't. One of the sad realities we have in this country is people tend to judge others by how much money they think they have & their social status. All I can say is its a mistake to do so.
    Gary
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    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  12. #47
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    We have very high healthcare costs due to insurance itself.
    This makes costs higher which requires the need for insurance even further.
    If we are going to keep insurance and opt for a single payer system.. then we need a percentage copay... No deductibles or any variations... People need to feel some costs when they go to the doctor.. The emergency room is full of people with runny noses for instance.. if they paid say 25 percent of that bill they wouldn't be there.
    There are loads of people that go to the doctor over nothing really.. this increases costs for all as premiums go up for all... Also since almost all have insurance.. No one cares what healthcare costs so you have 12 dollar Tylenol.. rather than say no thanks... Remember an insurance card is a blank check for the hospital to write in anything they want.
    It's a reverse competition of sort... Rather than try to beat someone else's price by 10 percent... It's the other way around... If you charge a little more than other health care agencies it's competitive and nothing can be done about it... Then others raise prices.. like the first guy.. then the others follow.
    Remember no one is trying to bring in customers with pricing.
    Wanna bring down healthcare costs... Either eliminate insurance altogether.. or force a percentage copay all away across the board.
    Mandate prices listings for all services from tests to surgeries.. cancer treatments.. people will shop when they are feeling money leaving their hand.
    ...

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    We have very high healthcare costs due to insurance itself.
    MG, wouldn't you like to see the cost breakdown for when a hospital charges $30K for a one hour surgery? It has to be $15K in profit. Or when the ER just charged me $4,000 for a few stitches, a soft split and x-rays?

    That is one of the roots of the problem. The ridiculous prices and profit. But not so with Medicare patients, they are protected from those thieves. I want that protection too

  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    MG, wouldn't you like to see the cost breakdown for when a hospital charges $30K for a one hour surgery? It has to be $15K in profit. Or when the ER just charged me $4,000 for a few stitches, a soft split and x-rays?

    That is one of the roots of the problem. The ridiculous prices and profit. But not so with Medicare patients, they are protected from those thieves. I want that protection too
    Well although Medicare doesn't pay as much it is because the govt says no we won't and you have to do the service.
    Can you imagine say a body shop suffering the same abuse by the govt?
    Or any company for that matter?
    Also they are still paying a pretty decent amount...I posted in one of these threads somewhere what the govt spends on healthcare..it was a very large chunk I remember..about a fourth if the budget..maybe more.
    Hospital bills are outrageous indeed.
    If I remember about 20 percent is administration costs.
    Those people have one job... To get as much money as possible for the hospital... Repeat billing... Complex billing.. haggling with insurance companies.. whatever makes a dollar.
    But anyway back to Medicare and the govt saying nope.. this is what we will pay...It's an over reach of govt power..since we already know they will use abusive powers... letting the govt decide what they will pay can lead to very bad consequences...for example..."We won't pay no more than x amount for a stint"...well guess what.. you won't get one..blood thinners till you die.
    Healthcare providers will push for service that make the most money..then the govt will chop at that.
    The only way it would work if all health care workers worked for the govt at specified wages..and the govt paid for the supplies...but wait..they would decide what they would pay for those wages.
    The govt forcing a private agency to perform services at prices the govt sets should have never happened...the panel of judges deemed such as to not be an abuse of power..need a public flogging
    ...

  15. #50
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    Here you go GC the govt spending is 23 percent of its total.. this is for 2017.
    I am sure it would easily double if everyone was covered..so let's say 50 percent plus of the budget going to health care
    ...

  16. #51
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    Healthcare costs total for 2017 public and private .. 3.5 trillion dollars.
    When we divide that by the US population in 2017 .. equals 10,736 dollars per person on average for health care... Yes the figures are right. For a family of four that's over 40 grand.
    The older people are raising up the average cost per person to this insane amount.
    https://www.crfb.org/papers/american...federal-budget
    ...

  17. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    Well although Medicare doesn't pay as much it is because the govt says no we won't and you have to do the service.
    Can you imagine say a body shop suffering the same abuse by the govt?
    Or any company for that matter?
    Also they are still paying a pretty decent amount...I posted in one of these threads somewhere what the govt spends on healthcare..it was a very large chunk I remember..about a fourth if the budget..maybe more.
    Hospital bills are outrageous indeed.
    If I remember about 20 percent is administration costs.
    Those people have one job... To get as much money as possible for the hospital... Repeat billing... Complex billing.. haggling with insurance companies.. whatever makes a dollar.
    But anyway back to Medicare and the govt saying nope.. this is what we will pay...It's an over reach of govt power..since we already know they will use abusive powers... letting the govt decide what they will pay can lead to very bad consequences...for example..."We won't pay no more than x amount for a stint"...well guess what.. you won't get one..blood thinners till you die.
    Healthcare providers will push for service that make the most money..then the govt will chop at that.
    The only way it would work if all health care workers worked for the govt at specified wages..and the govt paid for the supplies...but wait..they would decide what they would pay for those wages.
    The govt forcing a private agency to perform services at prices the govt sets should have never happened...the panel of judges deemed such as to not be an abuse of power..need a public flogging
    The idea that Medicare says you have to do the service & accept what we will pay is not completely correct. Hospitals & doctors accept Medicare like they do with any other insurance & that is to make money. If it is not in their financial interests to accept Medicare then they wouldn't do it. It's hard to find a hospital that doesn't take Medicare but there are some & I'm sure they have their reasons. Around 40 percent of hospital patients are on Medicare so even if Medicare doesn't pay as much as the hospitals want, they still don't want to lose that guaranteed income. There may also be perks the hospitals get from the government that we don't know about that they might lose if they refuse to accept Medicare. Its not uncommon to hear about a doctor no longer accepting Medicare patients but I haven't heard of a hospital doing that. This is not to be confused with the laws where hospitals can't turn down anyone in the emergency room or throw people out of the hospital when they can't pay because that has nothing to do with Medicare.
    Gary
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    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

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