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  1. #14
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    What if they were building a freeway through your town and sticking the townspeople with the bill? Each person had to pony up. The people were screaming that they did not have the money and the govt's solutions was to let them write it off on their taxes. What a joke!

    The people would say "let the govt pay for it. Let them take control. Let them hire the contractors. Let them buy the land, etc."

    IOW, we are all bigtime socialists. People just don't like that word.

  2. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    Are you saying we should be allowed to have an HSA with no insurance or just that everyone should have an HSA now? I'm all for HSA's but really all they do is help you for tax purposes. You still have to have the money to put in there plus pay your insurance premiums with other money. For people living from paycheck to paycheck it's useless & there's a lot in this country in that position. I think it would be better if any money spent on healthcare would be completely tax deductible & not just money contributed to or spent from an HSA.
    Many people living from paycheck to paycheck are paying $1000 a month in healthcare premiums. They are paying that money out of their earnings right now. That money in the hands of the individual is what will make significant positive changes to the healthcare market.

    An HSA would likely be a large part of a solution along with a catastrophic coverage plan not regulated into unaffordability. Did you read the link I provided explaining the sinister schemes of how this happens? A catastrophic plan shouldn't cost more than $300 a month based on what "major medical" plans used to cost.

    And please don't fall back on the talking point that due to the increase in costs of care, that number would be far higher. The reason for the explosion in costs is the direct result of no end user control. Again, read my link above to see just one example of hundreds of how that happened.

    Lasik surgery advancements are some of the most amazing advancements in the medical field over the last 20 years. The machines themselves cost millions of dollars, yet the cost for the procedure is dropping. Not dropping to normal inflation rates. Actually dropping in price.

    So a rough equation to get your head around it. I pay an average of $15k a year($1250 a month) in healthcare costs. Forget about GC's straw man argument of VA costs, Medicare, malpractice, etc. Those are separate for now and only a distraction to productive ideas being discussed. They are separate costs. So take $300 for catastrophic. And most estimates put deductibles for that plans cost at below $5k. But let's use $5k so Captain Straw Man can't say I've used unrealistic numbers to justify my position. That leaves me $950 a month. Let's say I sign up my family at a provider like Altas MD on top of that to further protect me. I'm that type of guy that would probably do that. That cost is $120 a month. Now I'm at $830 in my pocket every month. I need to find my HSA to cover the $5k(over estimate, BTW) deductible. That's $415 a month. Leaving me with $415(coincidently enough) in my pocket for beer every month. That has me fully insured and protected and nearly an additional $5,000($415x12) in my pocket every year.

    Also, once I've got my HSA funded to at least $5k, I could cut back that $415 a month to whatever it takes to maintain a $5k minimim balance. So I have the possibility of putting up tk another $5k a year into my pocket on top of the $5k immediate savings.

    But that's not the best of it Gary. Now I'm a consumer on charge of the money. The providers and insurers will now war against each other vs war against us. I've got the money BlTCHES! You want it? Come get it by providing me with a product I want to pay to get. They will get out of bed every morning trying to outdo their competition similar to what Target is now offering with two hour delivery to compete against what Amazon and Walmart offer. And right now Amazon and Walmart are thinking up ways to provide consumers with something better to counter Targets move. Those men and women at Target's competitors are right now thinking up new ideas to offer consumers. It's Saturday and they are fishing or at a barbeque. Or on a family vacation in Aruba or Disney World thinking about it right now. Are the execs at the corporate healthcare provider or insurer thinking up ways to lower your costs and provide you with a better product? Or are they wondering if the lobbying firm they hired made any progress in Washington this week?

    And another benefit to what I described above is those costs would track inflation or even drop below inflation. That's what a consumer driven market provides.

    But wait, there's more! In addition to all that, another benefit is the costs for guys like me who go that route will drop costs for everyone across the board. They cannot continue to gouge the standard third party payer insurance scheme(if someone stupidly decides to remain in it). It would also save money for the needed safety nets. The market would shift to find ways to cut costs across the entire market to lower my costs. In every nook and cranny. And don't use the straw man argument they will cut quality to a level that we will get Dollar Store quality healthcare. Again, I'm in charge. I demand price AND quality. I don't shop at the Dollar Store, and I won't buy Dollar Store healthcare.

    But wait! There is more! Opening up the market and putting consumers in charge will innovate new ideas to improve the product and cut my costs in ways we haven't even considered yet. Captain Straw Man often says there are only a handful of Altas MD providers. That's so illogical and short sighted I can put words on it. If we figured out a way to move the market to this better solution, places like Atlas will pop up all over the place overnight(relatively speaking). And new ideas will be to get me to willingly open my wallet will flood the market. All of them focused on me and my demands. And the more options people have the more market forces will be put on the individual players.

    And one of the best parts about it the corporate gouging we all hate will take a beating. It would stop it in its tracks. The Aetna executive sitting on a beach in Aruba right now, thinking up ways to further remove you from control, will be out of a job next year.

  3. #16
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    Looks like Captain Staw Man showed up.

    Don't let him drag an interesting discussion back to the starting gate.

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Many people living from paycheck to paycheck are paying $1000 a month in healthcare premiums. They are paying that money out of their earnings right now. That money in the hands of the individual is what will make significant positive changes to the healthcare market.
    .........................
    One of the problems I see here is you're assuming the consumer is going to put that $1,000.00 a month to good use if they had that money in their hands. Some will but some will not & us Americans are not known as practical spenders. I've read that the average household carries around $7,000 in ongoing credit debt with an average interest rate between 14 to 20%. That's in the ballpark of around $100 in interest being flushed down the toilet every month. Do you really expect giving those people $1,000 a month is going to solve the health care debacle? It's not that I think you're ideas would not work at all but that I think there would be too many that they would not work for to be a solution for the whole country. I like the ideas of HSA's too but I don't see them as a universal solution.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    Is it going to be a voluntary contribution or will it be funded with a tax similar to social security? If it's voluntary then I don't see it making much difference because a lot of people are not going to voluntarily fund it no matter how much they save in not paying insurance premiums. A lot of employers already pay a substantial amount of healthcare premiums tax free for their workers so I don't see how switching money to an HSA is going to help those employees. The only reason HSA's are funded voluntarily now is for the tax benefit & employees get a better tax break because they don't even have to pay FICA on the employer sponsored healthcare portion. I think the HSA is a good idea but I just don't see it working for everyone as a sloution.
    This is an issue we can come up with a solution for.

    We do need to make sure people can't freeload on the system.

    How can we enforced everyone needs to contribute and have a minimum of a $5k deductible plan and be enforceable under the Constitution?

    You single payer proponents believe single payer is the solution. Wouldn't that also be government forcing people to pay for a product also? So you would be for that happening in the case of single payer but not for a private I since coverage plan?

    I HAVE to have homeowners insurance and pay property taxes to own my home. I understand the vast differences between home ownership/driving a car, etc and health insurance. But I'm being forced to pay those. One of them being a tax. The government forces taxes all the time, but they can't force you to buy the product or use the service that collects those taxes. I'm forced to pay taxes to fund public schools, but I'm not forced to buy property. I get the Constitutional aspect/problem of that. It's an immense hurdle. But I find it funny how the single payer guys wouldn't have a problem forcing a tax on us to purchase what is in essence a product. And didn't have an issue with "tax" penalties fund the ACA.

    There is likely a solution to this. A constitutional amendment. That would turn into a mess because "they" are involved. But worth discussion.

    This major issue is the reason for threads like this. Many guys throwing out ideas and analysis to find solutions.

    PHM's non governmental co-op could be explored. How could you get every citizen to contribute?

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    One of the problems I see here is you're assuming the consumer is going to put that $1,000.00 a month to good use if they had that money in their hands. Some will but some will not & us Americans are not known as practical spenders. I've read that the average household carries around $7,000 in ongoing credit debt with an average interest rate between 14 to 20%. That's in the ballpark of around $100 in interest being flushed down the toilet every month. Do you really expect giving those people $1,000 a month is going to solve the health care debacle? It's not that I think you're ideas would not work at all but that I think there would be too many that they would not work for to be a solution for the whole country. I like the ideas of HSA's too but I don't see them as a universal solution.
    And what if that guy did sock away $10 - $20K in an HSA and he lost his job or got a DUI...and that was his only cash on hand. Consider that money gone!

    The govt came in and saved the day for the elderly with Medicare. Its time for them to save the day for us.

  7. #20
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    Insulin in Mexico is one sixth the price here compared to Mexico tourist areas... I expect it is about a tenth the price in non tourists areas.
    Insulin is Insulin.

    As a side note I would like to point out that while healthcare is much much cheaper in Mexico vs here... Prices are advancing quickly ... What has changed... Mexico is advancing a govt subsidized health care system .
    Sighs.

    https://khn.org/news/americans-cross...n-of-u-s-cost/
    ...

  8. #21
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    As we can see the harder we push the more we pay... This chart is old.. doesn't even show the mess Obama created
    ...

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    One of the problems I see here is you're assuming the consumer is going to put that $1,000.00 a month to good use if they had that money in their hands. Some will but some will not & us Americans are not known as practical spenders. I've read that the average household carries around $7,000 in ongoing credit debt with an average interest rate between 14 to 20%. That's in the ballpark of around $100 in interest being flushed down the toilet every month. Do you really expect giving those people $1,000 a month is going to solve the health care debacle? It's not that I think you're ideas would not work at all but that I think there would be too many that they would not work for to be a solution for the whole country. I like the ideas of HSA's too but I don't see them as a universal solution.
    I'm not assuming they will. I asking for ideas of how to implement the idea because I actually assume many people won't voluntarily pony up $1000 of the $1500 they are already paying.

    And all we would have to "mandate" is catastrophic coverage. Wry few people would get financially destroyed if the number is kept under a cap.

    And the ones that do, they are still better off than Sally Pipes' mother and thousands like her.

    I'd rather be financially wiped out but have the opportunity to rebuild than dead because I have a higher chance of slipping through the cracks, sit on a waiting list, denied care by a Washington bean counter, have less access to new medications and procedures, create a system that severely diminishes new inovation and medication. Etc.

    Think about those things while you simultaneously come to the realization that government trying to fix problems and create perfection fails every time. Would you trade the inherent problems in a single payer system for the possibility of someone going bankrupt beciase they can't come up with $5k even if given the option of a payment plan?

    Remember that 30% of Candians rely solely on the single payer system. There are many holes in the system that prevent what I would call adequate care. Why don't you care about those 30%. Some of them with serious illnesses who aren't receiving timely basic care. We do have those people here also. My point is single payer hasn't fixed the problem.

    Gary, you speak of single payer like it will solve all problems. I know you will think you understand the pitfalls, but the truth is there is plenty of comparable suffering up north and I don't think you are factoring that in at the level it needs to be.

    I would rather be penniless in the USA at 60 years old needing dialysis than Canada.

    Here is one example concerning prostate cancer:
    "Lancet Oncology global study last year found that 91.9% of Americans with the disease were still alive after five years compared to just 51.1% in the UK."

    The list of medications Amd procedures in Canada and England, etc is pretty eye-opening. They are faced with the same realities as we are. But do you really want insulated faceless bureaucrats making those decisions? Google Seach "NHS F.A.C.E" and skim past the government website results and read the news articles about what their job is as a department under NHS. And the decisions they are forced to make.

    Im not saying the reality is as bad as some anti-single payer claims that are out there. But it is fact, more people suffer and die under single payer. I'm sure you and the single payer guys are rolling your eyes right now, but some human beings will suffer and die compared to the system we have and would still be able provide. Would that numner only be 1000 a year in the USA? Maybe. Probably more. But let's use 1000. Compare that number of suffering and dead to the small handful that might have to declare bankruptcy and start over.

    You guys refuse to acknowledge the pitfalls of what you are pushing for. Do I do the same with what we have now or what I'm proposing? There are pitfalls for any chosen system. That includes moving to a more consumer controlled free market system. There are positives aspects for all of them. Don't be like GC and pick and choose the ones you like and deny the ones you don't.

    Let me post this one more time. This is a reality. Weigh it against bankruptcy:

    "Lancet Oncology global study last year found that 91.9% of Americans with the disease were still alive after five years compared to just 51.1% in the UK."

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    As we can see the harder we push the more we pay... This chart is old.. doesn't even show the mess Obama created
    Let's also not forget two things when comparing per capita costs.

    How much money do the super wealthy spend in the USA to cure their deseases?

    How much did people like Steve Jobs and Patrick Swayze pay out of pocket to try and beat their pancreatic cancer?

    Also, how many of the ultra wealthy in Canada come to the USA to try and treat their chronic diseases? That would simultaneously lower their per capita costs while raising ours.

    How much do these two realities contribute to the per capita disparity?

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Let's also not forget two things when comparing per capita costs.

    How much money do the super wealthy spend in the USA to cure their deseases?

    How much did people like Steve Jobs and Patrick Swayze pay out of pocket to try and beat their pancreatic cancer?

    Also, how many of the ultra wealthy in Canada come to the USA to try and treat their chronic diseases? That would simultaneously lower their per capita costs while raising ours.

    How much do these two realities contribute to the per capita disparity?
    Indeed...and while that is happening a trend has been us darting to Mexico to save on money for dental.. meds and some operations...due to our high costs.. Darting to Mexico for dental is happening alot....Turns out many dentists here actually train in Mexico to save costs with schooling.
    So in essence is much less expensive to run a school in Mexico..so we are sending schools that way as well as the jobs we are already familiar with....I know...let's raise taxes to make up for the loss!!!.
    Then when more leave we raise em more 😂
    ...

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    What if they were building a freeway through your town and sticking the townspeople with the bill? Each person had to pony up. The people were screaming that they did not have the money and the govt's solutions was to let them write it off on their taxes. What a joke!

    The people would say "let the govt pay for it. Let them take control. Let them hire the contractors. Let them buy the land, etc."

    IOW, we are all bigtime socialists. People just don't like that word.
    We are already paying for roads through gasoline taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc. etc. Maryland came up with a rain tax...come on man.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    One of the problems I see here is you're assuming the consumer is going to put that $1,000.00 a month to good use if they had that money in their hands. Some will but some will not & us Americans are not known as practical spenders. I've read that the average household carries around $7,000 in ongoing credit debt with an average interest rate between 14 to 20%. That's in the ballpark of around $100 in interest being flushed down the toilet every month. Do you really expect giving those people $1,000 a month is going to solve the health care debacle? It's not that I think you're ideas would not work at all but that I think there would be too many that they would not work for to be a solution for the whole country. I like the ideas of HSA's too but I don't see them as a universal solution.
    So people that are financially responsible need to cover for the guy buying drugs, or alcohol, or cigarettes, or a Big Mac every day, or a fancy car or house? SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

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