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  1. #417
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    All this talk about getting the govt out of healthcare is nonsense and a pipe dream. Not everything they touch is screwed up.

    Are the FAA, FCC, CIA, NSA, SEC, FBI, FDA, NTSB, Medicare, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, The Pentagon, all branches of our Military, etc terribly run? Should we be asking the govt to get out of those businesses too?

    We have this problem with healthcare because the Pubs have removed themselves from the solution. They will not weigh in or offer any solution to it. They refuse to find common ground with the Left like they have been able to do with every other three-letter agency that runs just fine. The Right uses The ACA to bash the Left but offers no alternatives or compromises.

    So, let it be said that there is plenty of evidence that our govt does not screw up everything they touch. That is what the losing side claims when they refuse to find common ground with the other side of the isle and consequently gets a Bill rammed down their throat.

    The Right is fully capable of writing a Universal Healthcare Bill that both sides could live with...just as they were able to help write The ACA. Too bad the Right Wing Sheep will vote their leaders out if they offer any compromise or solution.

  2. #418
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    Been out for a while doing actual work, don't tell anyone.

    You guys are going to have to help me out here. When did the government mandate that insurance companies had to fix rust spots on your car? or damage from a previous accident? or replace your roof from normal were and tear? or mandate that you had to pay an ever increasing fine if you didn't have car or home insurance? or help you pay for your insurance if you couldn't afford it? or require you to have something other than basic liability coverage? Apparently I missed that news conference and my home and auto insurance has none of these features. Yet this is what the government did to health care, put outlandish pressure on insurance companies to provide policies with features and benefits that they had never had before like preexisting conditions. And that's the best argument you got "yes they did"?

  3. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    All this talk about getting the govt out of healthcare is nonsense and a pipe dream. Not everything they touch is screwed up.

    Are the FAA, FCC, CIA, NSA, SEC, FBI, FDA, NTSB, Medicare, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, The Pentagon, all branches of our Military, etc terribly run? Should we be asking the govt to get out of those businesses too?

    We have this problem with healthcare because the Pubs have removed themselves from the solution. They will not weigh in or offer any solution to it. They refuse to find common ground with the Left like they have been able to do with every other three-letter agency that runs just fine. The Right uses The ACA to bash the Left but offers no alternatives or compromises.

    So, let it be said that there is plenty of evidence that our govt does not screw up everything they touch. That is what the losing side claims when they refuse to find common ground with the other side of the isle and consequently gets a Bill rammed down their throat.

    The Right is fully capable of writing a Universal Healthcare Bill that both sides could live with...just as they were able to help write The ACA. Too bad the Right Wing Sheep will vote their leaders out if they offer any compromise or solution.
    Let's see, CIA ~ Iraq WMD's nough said there. FBI ~ the Trump FISA warrant, Yup. We have been over Medi so many times do I really need to answer that one?, Looks like you convenient left out the TSA and their touchy-feelly campaign, and how can you forget FEMA when you want to talk government screw ups, and how about the EPA and their little natural disaster when they dumps tons of toxic waste into that river turning it green wasn't it? Then wasn't it the Border Patrol involved with the guns for drugs program helping the Mexican drug cartels. Keep dreaming that your government doesn't screw up!!! These are just recent off the top of my head without looking. Hate to think what I could find if I looked and not just going off memory.

    PS: Pentagon, can you spell Benghazi?

  4. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    Been out for a while doing actual work, don't tell anyone.

    You guys are going to have to help me out here. When did the government mandate that insurance companies had to fix rust spots on your car? or damage from a previous accident? or replace your roof from normal were and tear? or mandate that you had to pay an ever increasing fine if you didn't have car or home insurance? or help you pay for your insurance if you couldn't afford it? or require you to have something other than basic liability coverage? Apparently I missed that news conference and my home and auto insurance has none of these features. Yet this is what the government did to health care, put outlandish pressure on insurance companies to provide policies with features and benefits that they had never had before like preexisting conditions. And that's the best argument you got "yes they did"?
    As long as you look at health care as equivalent to rust spots on your car or any of the other things you mentioned then your premise makes sense. In fact there would be no need for this discussion if that was truly the case. A lot of people including myself consider health care in a league all by itself, unlike any other business or material possessions. Of course if you consider healthcare in the same category as those other things then it would be ludicrous to even consider government involvement. I obviously don't agree with you but at least I understand where you're coming from.
    Gary
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    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  5. #421
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    Gary, the comparison to auto and home insurance was just to show the difference between what the government mandates for health and what it mandates for health. The gov intervention in auto and home were not to protect you but to protect others, so it was very limited. Where as with health they went to the extreme, major medical policies were gone, you could only get the full coverage with office visits, drug, test, hospitalization, etc. My example with the rust and such was to make one think where would auto premiums be if your insurance had to cover as much health does, or if your homeowners had to cover your roof even if it just wore out. Those premiums would sky rocket just like the health market did.

    One question I have asked multiple times and never gotten an answer is What happens if we go single payer and it just does not work? You are not going to get government out of it, you will have no more health companies, where do you go? Until there is a solid answer on that I don't see how we can move forward with SP. Just think if it does not work and it collapses. 50% of this country will no longer afford health care, maybe more. Prices would not be able to fall fast enough to keep up and medical facilities would have to close increasing the supply and demand ratio causing pricing to want to rise instead of fall. You want a catastrophe there it is.

  6. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    Gary, the comparison to auto and home insurance was just to show the difference between what the government mandates for health and what it mandates for health. The gov intervention in auto and home were not to protect you but to protect others, so it was very limited. Where as with health they went to the extreme, major medical policies were gone, you could only get the full coverage with office visits, drug, test, hospitalization, etc. My example with the rust and such was to make one think where would auto premiums be if your insurance had to cover as much health does, or if your homeowners had to cover your roof even if it just wore out. Those premiums would sky rocket just like the health market did.

    One question I have asked multiple times and never gotten an answer is What happens if we go single payer and it just does not work? You are not going to get government out of it, you will have no more health companies, where do you go? Until there is a solid answer on that I don't see how we can move forward with SP. Just think if it does not work and it collapses. 50% of this country will no longer afford health care, maybe more. Prices would not be able to fall fast enough to keep up and medical facilities would have to close increasing the supply and demand ratio causing pricing to want to rise instead of fall. You want a catastrophe there it is.
    It all depends on who writes the new Single Payer Bill.

    We seem to be in agreement that the Left nutjobs, like Gruber, will write it and the Right seems to be OK with that. Why?

    When they wrote the Medicare Bill, did only one side write it, or both?

  7. #423
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    Doesn’t matter who writes it. If it is not self sustaining when they set it up meaning not enough of your tax dollars they either rob you to try and float the sinking ship or let it collapse. Either way we’re screwed. Insurance companies won’t be around to fall back on cause the government ran them out of business. So you have your savings which few Americans have to use. The elderly won’t have a dime, at least the average ones, so they will be first to succumb, then the sickly poor next. After that you just pray you don’t get sick. It may get bad enough where people will be stealing to eat or pay med bills. The 60’s race riots will look like a playground scuffle.

  8. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    Gary, the comparison to auto and home insurance was just to show the difference between what the government mandates for health and what it mandates for health. The gov intervention in auto and home were not to protect you but to protect others, so it was very limited. Where as with health they went to the extreme, major medical policies were gone, you could only get the full coverage with office visits, drug, test, hospitalization, etc. My example with the rust and such was to make one think where would auto premiums be if your insurance had to cover as much health does, or if your homeowners had to cover your roof even if it just wore out. Those premiums would sky rocket just like the health market did.

    One question I have asked multiple times and never gotten an answer is What happens if we go single payer and it just does not work? You are not going to get government out of it, you will have no more health companies, where do you go? Until there is a solid answer on that I don't see how we can move forward with SP. Just think if it does not work and it collapses. 50% of this country will no longer afford health care, maybe more. Prices would not be able to fall fast enough to keep up and medical facilities would have to close increasing the supply and demand ratio causing pricing to want to rise instead of fall. You want a catastrophe there it is.
    I'll start with your question about what happens if single payer doesn't work because that is a very good question. The truth is I don't know & I'm not sure anybody else does either. If its done right & not half a$$ed like Obamacare I can't see how it wouldn't work but I don't discount the possibility. Going back to the insurance comparisons, I was trying to point out that since healthcare is in it's own category it's not practical to compare how the gov. has intervened into health insurance as opposed to other fields of insurance.
    Gary
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    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  9. #425
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    I'm on Medicare now, one thing that surprised me, was I still have to pay for it. So far I'm happy with it, with BCBS as a secondary, my co-pays went away. Physical Therapy was also zero out of pocket. I do think it's criminal that BCBS, that I've had for close to fifty years, is allowed to dump the responsibility on a government program. I'm coming up for some major surgery this Fall, and will see how it goes.
    Retired, after 43 Years

  10. #426
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    As I see it, single payer has not been around long enough to know if it is sustainable or not. It appears to me that as time passes the burden of healthcare becomes greater so services diminish and costs increase. This happens over a long enough period of time that those that are involved keep thinking we just need to keep adjusting and we will find the right balance because we have no other coarse of action. It would be kinda like if you are swimming and get tired and think if I just swim a little harder I can make it to shore. The problem being the harder you swim the more tired you get. Eventually you drown, in the case of health care you drown in debt.

    As for insurance it is all the same. Insurance is like a mortgage for something you haven't purchased yet, and in the case of health hope you never have to. I think it is easy to equate health insurance to health care but that is not the case. One is a service, the other is one option to pay for that service. The issue gets confusing because there is so much more to health than just going to the clinic. How and what you eat, your life style, work, almost everything in your life will affect your health, so your health is largely dictated by your personal choices. Insurance wants to have people pay for for those choices, government run health insurance wants everyone to pay the same which will inevitably lead more people to make bad choices since they will suffer the consequences but not have to pay for the treatment for those consequences. While it is easy to feel for the poor and their generally poorer health, one also must look at their poor choices like fast food for every meal which is more expensive from both a financial as well as a health stand point. Smoking is another costly habit that is expensive on both counts. Should those trying to make good personal choice have to suffer for those that make bad choices?

  11. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    Doesn’t matter who writes it. If it is not self sustaining when they set it up meaning not enough of your tax dollars they either rob you to try and float the sinking ship or let it collapse. Either way we’re screwed. Insurance companies won’t be around to fall back on cause the government ran them out of business. So you have your savings which few Americans have to use. The elderly won’t have a dime, at least the average ones, so they will be first to succumb, then the sickly poor next. After that you just pray you don’t get sick. It may get bad enough where people will be stealing to eat or pay med bills. The 60’s race riots will look like a playground scuffle.
    It most certainly would matter who writes it.

    The ACA could have been written by the Republicans if they were forced to participate. If it was co-authored by Pubs, would it look the same? Not a chance. It would it be written to better protect the working man?

    If our Medicare Bill was written by the Left only they would likely only make the those with incomes over $100K contribute to it...and it would either collapse or double the burden on the working man. But, it is currently payed for by all working folks. Just like a universal healthcare bill should be written.

    How can you say it doesn't matter who writes it? That is like saying it doesn't matter how it is written, which is preposterous.

    Right now nobody is paying any more for healthcare for the poor provided by Obamacare. We are paying more for our policy and our healthcare only! Health insurance companies also are not paying for healthcare for the poor provided by The ACA. Our govt is. The increased amount we are paying now is going straight into the health insurance company's pockets.

  12. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    It most certainly would matter who wrote it.

    The ACA could have been written by the Republicans if they were forced to participate. If it was co-authored by Pubs, would it look the same? Not a chance. It would it be written to better protect the working man?

    If our Medicare Bill was written by the Left only they would likely only make the those with incomes over $100K contribute to it...and it would either collapse or double the burden on the working man. But, it is currently payed for by all working folks. Just like a universal healthcare bill should be written.

    How can you say it doesn't matter who writes it? That is like saying it doesn't matter how it is written.
    Because the only way it would matter is if it was written that you take care of your own, period. Any political entity that would write such legislation is subject to the same thing, the total cost. The total cost is what ultimately brings it down. As I explained in an earlier post, over time prices go up, have to because of inflation. Prices go up and either services have to go down of more has to be paid in. At some point it becomes unsustainable, you are no longer getting the service that makes it worth the price. People rebel and it collapses. Here is the thing that about inflation, wages never keep up with cost of goods and services, they can't. That's why the middle class is slowly being eaten away at.

    Think about it. A business needs to maintain X% profit, what ever X is. As costs go up that profit number goes up more IE 10% profit on $10 is 1 but on 15 it is 1.5, still the same percentage but 50% more profit dollars, similar to compounding interest because it is basically what it is. So wages go up a percentage and the costs of goods/services goes up the percentage plus the profit percentage on the increase. This is why raising the minimum wage is a bad idea, everyone looses except the government because they get more money in taxes while everyone else pays more for the same thing.

    The thing you have to understand is what I am talking about is this does not happen overnight. It takes years and years, your kids may not even see it happen but at some point it will happen. So all it does is kicks the can down the road and our grand kids are saddled with cleaning up the mess. But hey , we got ours, didn't we?

  13. #429
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    Let me ask you this BNM, do you really think this talk about bringing the 'free market' into healthcare is our best path to solve our healthcare crisis? Is 83's pipe dream also yours... Even though you don't have a single politician in your corner?

    IOW, what exactly is the Pub's viable solution to this...nothing?

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