Line Set Under Concrete Walk Way - will this pass a Permit inspection - Los Angeles

[Helping Aunt L]

Hello, Thank You in advance for your help !

I know this is long, but I thought I would give all the info - please help if you can.


First a little info - old system & new system:

So, I'm trying to help my elderly aunt with her broken AC.

Location - Woodland Hills, CA 91367 (Los Angeles county)

Will be replacing the 23 year old Coil and the Condenser. Coil has a leak at the inside coil (electronic sniffer found a leak, found by one of the Contractors submitting a bid). Also, condensate pan is rusted and has a small hole in the bottom (reason for getting a new system - found water on garage floor).


Old system -

Outside Condenser - 5 ton "Rheem Classic X" - Model # RAKA-060JAZ.

Inside Coil - no name on the Coil except, "Refrigerant Evaporator" - Model # HCU 061 Q6 (Rheem could not find any information on this Coil).


New system -

Condenser Model # - Carrier 24AAA560A003

Coil Model # - Carrier CNPVP6024ALA

Includes: Safety Switch-Y / 1st Condensate Line-Y / 2nd Condensate Lines-No / Line Flush-Y
/Condenser Pad-Y / Thermostat-Y / Switch Box-? / TXV R410A-Y / Earthquake Straps- Y / Insulation on refrigeration lines - ?



Here Is The Issue:

The Line Set runs underneath a concrete walkway - Hopefully someone will know this answer (or a direct Phone # I can call to verify what the code is), as I have received two different answers from the installers I have received bids from.

Both estimates are for Permitted work.

Installer A says - there is "no code requirement".

Installer B says - "if there is an issue with the Permit, I will fight for you. The Line Set is pre-existing".

There must be a code, right ?


Best Guess / Problem:

The Line Set runs underneath the concrete walk way on the side of the house. The Condenser unit is placed away from the house (on the other side of the concrete walk way). The Line Set goes under the concrete, then reappears a distance away, where it runs up the outside of the house, then goes into the attic.

IF - the line set is placed under the concrete in an L shaped pattern - then the distance is 44" Width to the house. Then, if the Line Set continues to run in this L shaped pattern, this remaining distance is 13 Feet, 10 inches (13' 10") running parallel with the house (to where the Line Set reappears from under the concrete and runs up the outside of the house). IF - the Line Set runs at an angle (instead of the L shaped pattern) underneath the concrete walk way, then the total distance is shorter.

The current Line Set will be reused for the New condenser and coil.

Lastly, the Line Set seems to have black insulated rubber wrapped around the lines. As the Line Set exits the concrete walk way, there is just a little bit of black insulated rubber sticking out, wrapped around the lines.



Remedy ? ? ?

Here is my thinking on the Line Set running under the concrete walkway:

The scenario I don't want to happen - is a city permit/inspector saying this is not to code - after the Condenser has already been installed. If there is any issue/problems, I would rather know the Issue / Cost / Remedy up front.

This is what my Aunt and I are looking for to be assured this won't happen:

1a.) This line set location/placement will pass the City Permit - as is, no additional work required or moving the lines ?

1b.) My Aunt is looking for the Permit/City Code that says this line set location will pass the Permit.

Thank you

[ga-hvac-tech]

First... burying a lineset is not really the best thing to do... as the contact with the ground will rob some of the efficiency.

I suspect the line runs pretty straight to the unit.

Question... is there any way to put the unit against the house where the line comes down, or close to there??? then use some decorative stones to extend the walkway around the unit???

As to code... Since I am in GA (state), I do not know what CA/LA county will say...

Someone from that market will come along and comment.

[comfortdoc]

Not sure about local and state codes, but Carriers install instructions limit buried lineset length to 36".

[Helping Aunt L]

First... burying a lineset is not really the best thing to do... as the contact with the ground will rob some of the efficiency.

I suspect the line runs pretty straight to the unit.

Question... is there any way to put the unit against the house where the line comes down, or close to there??? then use some decorative stones to extend the walkway around the unit???

As to code... Since I am in GA (state), I do not know what CA/LA county will say...

Someone from that market will come along and comment.

ga-hvac-tech thank you for your quick reply -

Yes, I wish the line set was not done this way - done 23 year ago. Walk way is approx 44" wide, then a short 3 Foot approx. wall, then a steep hill.

Where the Condenser is located is in an extension of the walk way in a concrete area. Only room for the Condenser, then the wall 7' approx then the hill.

Short answer - no way to move Condenser anywhere on either side of the house (it would block the walkway). As for the back yard - it would have to sit in-between french doors and really mess up the configuration of the deck (plus cost).

The installer suggested putting a 'trap' on the line set to help keep the 'oil' from the Compressor settling in the line underneath the concrete. As the old Condenser has been running for 23 years, with no problems - do you think this is necessary ? Suggestions ?

Thank you

[Pnasty]

I don’t know about local codes as other have said as well. I am only commenting what on contractor said about the line set being pre existing. That is not a reason an inspector would pass it. If burying line sets is a violation in your area, it needs to be fixed. An installation has to be brought up to code, every aspect of it. How would you feel if an electrician installed a new breaker panel in your home but left the wiring from 1908?

[Helping Aunt L]

Not sure about local and state codes, but Carriers install instructions limit buried lineset length to 36".

comfortdocthank you for your quick reply -

I had read this line set limitation. This is another question for the installer. I just didn't get around to it as our meeting on Friday went poorly (see my other question posted today).

1.) Is this for ALL carriers models ?

2.) Based on this 36" limitation - as it says in the install guide - basically, "Don't Do This".

What is your thought on ignoring the install instructions ? The current Condenser has been running for 23 years with this same Line Set (and is still running).

3.) I just feel I am running out of options - I don't know if Lennox or American Standard also have this type of limitation ? ? ?

Thank you

[Helping Aunt L]

I don’t know about local codes as other have said as well. I am only commenting what on contractor said about the line set being pre existing. That is not a reason an inspector would pass it. If burying line sets is a violation in your area, it needs to be fixed. An installation has to be brought up to code, every aspect of it. How would you feel if an electrician installed a new breaker panel in your home but left the wiring from 1908?

Pnasty - Yes, I ABSOLUTELY agree. This will be permitted work. The 2 installers I have narrowed my choice down to have not been leaving me with a feeling of assurance. These are 2 installers with a long history and high online ratings.

It seems it would be easy to know this permit code (as a professional HVAC installer), I just feel installers must encounter this exact set up all the time (existing line set running beneath concrete walk way). And one of the installers Only do permitted work as they are from a big box store.

Thank you

[ga-hvac-tech]

Buried linesets were a 'cool' (aesthetic) thing decades back...
That trend faded.

Keep posting in your thread...
Someone in your area will come along and see the thread!

[comfortdoc]

comfortdocthank you for your quick reply -

I had read this line set limitation. This is another question for the installer. I just didn't get around to it as our meeting on Friday went poorly (see my other question posted today).

1.) Is this for ALL carriers models ?

2.) Based on this 36" limitation - as it says in the install guide - basically, "Don't Do This".

What is your thought on ignoring the install instructions ? The current Condenser has been running for 23 years with this same Line Set (and is still running).

3.) I just feel I am running out of options - I don't know if Lennox or American Standard also have this type of limitation ? ? ?

Thank you

If there are warranty issues that attract Carrier's attention they will void the warranty. Whether this is acceptable is up to Carrier's local tech support team.

There are proper practices to follow when installing refrigerant lines under ground. Throwing them in a trench and covering with dirt is not one of them. Ask your contractor to get a letter from Carrier approving his plan. From your description the line-set will need to be replaced.

[pecmsg]

Pnasty - Yes, I ABSOLUTELY agree. This will be permitted work. The 2 installers I have narrowed my choice down to have not been leaving me with a feeling of assurance. These are 2 installers with a long history and high online ratings.

It seems it would be easy to know this permit code (as a professional HVAC installer), I just feel installers must encounter this exact set up all the time (existing line set running beneath concrete walk way). And one of the installers Only do permitted work as they are from a big box store.

Thank you

What the code enforcement officer want's and what the industry requires are miles apart. This is not a Code Issue its a technical issue for Carriers Engineers to answer!

Can Line Sets be Buried YES but the installing contractor better have a good idea of what there doing or you'll pay over and over again.

[icemeister]

Since you are primarily concerned about the new system passing inspection due to the buried refrigerant piping, call your building department and get an inspector to look at the existing installation to give you a decision before you do the work.

[Helping Aunt L]

Buried linesets were a 'cool' (aesthetic) thing decades back...
That trend faded.

Keep posting in your thread...
Someone in your area will come along and see the thread!

Thank you for your help. I have been helped immensely just by reading the other posts on this site. Now I'm just trying to confirm issues I don't understand (double checking with answers from this site VS what the installers are telling me) and make sure all the (hidden) costs are included in the estimates due to having this work Permitted.

If this Line Set won't pass permit inspection - the cost, I assume, will skyrocket having to move the Condenser etc.

[pecmsg]

Again I don’t see any code enforcement officer saying NO.

[Helping Aunt L]

If there are warranty issues that attract Carrier's attention they will void the warranty. Whether this is acceptable is up to Carrier's local tech support team.

There are proper practices to follow when installing refrigerant lines under ground. Throwing them in a trench and covering with dirt is not one of them. Ask your contractor to get a letter from Carrier approving his plan. From your description the line-set will need to be replaced.

comfortdoc - I was also worried about any Warranty issue - this is a very good idea - "Ask your contractor to get a letter from Carrier approving his plan". The plan is to use the existing line set. Line Set underground (wrapped in insulation - maybe) for 23 years.

Besides the lines being underground (Warranty issue ?) - there is also a possible Warranty issue as the lines run approx. 13 feet underground. Carriers install instructions limit buried line set length to 36".

1.) If Carrier's local tech support team says both of these issues are ok - in a letter - then there should be no Warranty issues ? Of course this still does not remedy the problems with having the Lines Set underground in the first place.

2.) Just a thought - how would Carrier, in a Warranty situation, know that the lines are buried underground and more than 36" ?

3.) I don't want to assume anything. What from my description of the Line Set suggests they need to be replaced ?

[pecmsg]

comfortdoc - I was also worried about any Warranty issue - this is a very good idea - "Ask your contractor to get a letter from Carrier approving his plan". The plan is to use the existing line set. Line Set underground (wrapped in insulation - maybe) for 23 years.

Besides the lines being underground (Warranty issue ?) - there is also a possible Warranty issue as the lines run approx. 13 feet underground. Carriers install instructions limit buried line set length to 36".

1.) If Carrier's local tech support team says both of these issues are ok - in a letter - then there should be no Warranty issues ? Of course this still does not remedy the problems with having the Lines Set underground in the first place.

2.) Just a thought - how would Carrier, in a Warranty situation, know that the lines are buried underground and more than 36" ?

3.) I don't want to assume anything. What from my description of the Line Set suggests they need to be replaced ?

No ones going to write a letter approving it. It is between the manufacturer and the installing contractor. Unfortunately you have to trust tHe installing contractor!

[Helping Aunt L]

What the code enforcement officer want's and what the industry requires are miles apart. This is not a Code Issue its a technical issue for Carriers Engineers to answer!

Can Line Sets be Buried YES but the installing contractor better have a good idea of what there doing or you'll pay over and over again.

pecmsg - thank you very much for your reply.

1.) I don't want to assume anything with your reply. "What the code enforcement officer want's and what the industry requires are miles apart." I read this as the industry has it's own code - which may or may not pass Los Angeles county Permit code ? <-- this is the part that is keeping me up at night

2.) The estimates I have are for Permitted work. I assume the installers know what is to county code and what is not. And that they will do the installation, and all necessary work, to code. I just want an estimate that reflects this (I have been having problems with this. Meeting on Friday, 2nd meeting, the installer told me the Primary drain line is not to code - didn't mention in the 1st meeting, nor put on the estimate. Additional Hundreds of dollars to fix.

3.) Again, not wanting to assume anything. "This is not a Code Issue its a technical issue for Carriers Engineers to answer!" I'm not sure why this is Not a code issue - it seems to me, if this issue does not pass the Permit inspection, the cost of this installation will rise dramatically - causing the possible moving of the Condenser and the Line Set.

4.) As for " . . . . . Carriers Engineers to answer!" - Do you mean in reference to any Warranty issues - lines underground and more than 36" ? The engineers need to approve this Preexisting line set layout ?

5.) The Line Sets have been buried for 23 years from original install. The current installer is going to use the existing line set - per my request. I'm trying to save my aunt some money; as I have read here on HVAC others do this. "but the installing contractor better have a good idea of what there doing or you'll pay over and over again" - I'm not sure what you mean ? If they don't flush the existing line set correctly - this will cause issues at a later date ?

Thank you once again

[Helping Aunt L]

Since you are primarily concerned about the new system passing inspection due to the buried refrigerant piping, call your building department and get an inspector to look at the existing installation to give you a decision before you do the work.

icemeister thank you very much for your reply.

Trying to avoid hours looking online for the right phone number / department / person to contact - do I just look for - for example - Los Angeles County building department phone number ? Do you know the phone number or web page ?

Do you know if there is a cost to have this Pre - inspection done ? Great idea - I didn't know this could be done.

Thank you

[Helping Aunt L]

No ones going to write a letter approving it. It is between the manufacturer and the installing contractor. Unfortunately you have to trust tHe installing contractor!

Thank you again for your reply. I guess I am just not understanding <----Sorry

1.) "No ones going to write a letter approving it" - so then if a Warranty issue comes up - based on the current preexisting Line Set layout - my aunt could have any future Warranty issued denied ?

2.) "It is between the manufacturer and the installing contractor" - what is ? The Warranty issue ? It can't be the Permit issue.

3.) "Unfortunately you have to trust tHe installing contractor!" - that the installing contractor will take care (fix under Warranty) any Warranty issues that come up in the future ? IF the manufacturer denies a Warranty issue - are you suggesting the Contractor will fix the issues / pay to fix the issue out of their own pocket ?

Thank you

[comfortdoc]

You are insisting the contractor use the existing line set to save some money. It is installed contrary to industry standards for buried line sets and also contrary to Carriers installation instructions. No one can predict the future operation of this system.

At the very least have them install a properly buried lineset - sleeved, sealed, etc. Then if there are operational issues later, Carrier will need to prove the lineset that is installed using proper industry practices is the reason for the failure.

[pecmsg]

Thank you again for your reply. I guess I am just not understanding <----Sorry

1.) "No ones going to write a letter approving it" - so then if a Warranty issue comes up - based on the current preexisting Line Set layout - my aunt could have any future Warranty issued denied ?

2.) "It is between the manufacturer and the installing contractor" - what is ? The Warranty issue ? It can't be the Permit issue.

3.) "Unfortunately you have to trust tHe installing contractor!" - that the installing contractor will take care (fix under Warranty) any Warranty issues that come up in the future ? IF the manufacturer denies a Warranty issue - are you suggesting the Contractor will fix the issues / pay to fix the issue out of their own pocket ?

Thank you

The code officer knows NOTHING about what we do. He's going to spend a few minuets looking for duct insulation, maybe a drain line, electrical disconnects and that's about it. It is not there job to insure a long life from the equipment. CODE is the minimum standard!