Hi.
I Know this is a big topic, but i gotta start somewhere.
I am 32 year old from Norway.
I've been working as an electrician for ten years, but two years ago I took a chance on a job in a HVAC company (mostly working on air handling units).
I really want to learn about programmming regulators and setting up building automation systems. The city i l live in is full of old Johnson DX9100 units that will need to be replaced the next years. I want to be able to do that. where do i start learning? In my company there is BAS knowledge so i need to do it by myself.
I know a lot about the physical points, and basic knowledge about function block programming.
Maybe there is some equipment i can buy and set up at home to play with?
Niagara is something that is available worldwide and can be connected to multiple manufacturer's BACnet, Modbus, or Lonworks controllers. Programming logic in the controllers is typically either block-based or line-based and will vary form one manufacturer to the next. If you understand basic logic (IF, THEN, AND, OR) it applies to any of the languages. There are many controllers that you could buy used (Ebay), the challenge is getting the software. Consider some Sedona based devices, they usually have some sort of free software.
Google Honeywell Grey Manual and download the pdf.
The controls manuals sold here are some of the best in the industry: ATP Website.
If you can find a pdf copy of ASHREA 36P there are good examples of sequence of operations for equipment.
kontrol out
"Good" - Jocko "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor "Interoperability? You can't handle interoperability!" - Nathan R. Jessup “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora Watch it here!
I gotta say, your English is WAY better than my Norwegian.
Many get into the industry by working for a manufacturer or controls vendor. You mentioned Johnson Dx9100s... go work for Johnson. Here in the States, they tend to have a high turnover, and their training is very good. Put in two or three years there, and with some talent and hard work, you can go anywhere. Be prepared to pay for the training in the form of very low wages (thus the turnover).
Who knows, maybe you will like it and maybe they are different in Norway.
Since over 27 years I'm programming control devices for HVAC installations. If you want to do this work you have to know four points:
#1: You must (should isn't enough) know all about a HVAC installation. You must be able to analyse and to understand the functioning of an installation. Each installation is different from an other one.
#2: You must know the elements in your toolbox and their application. A handyman (crafter) who is building HVAC installations uses pinces, cutters, saws, solder irons... In your toolbox you'll find tools like logical elements, additioners, subtractors, regulators...
#3: You must be able to analyse an installation and to use the right tools at the right place in the right order.
#4: You must be a criminalist. The points 1 to 3 are used to establish the control and regulation strategy of an existing installation. The criminalist is able to see what has happened before to get an installation into a certain situation. That means the inverse way. It is helpful to analyse and to troubleshoot.
It has helped me very much that I've learned to program in Assembler programming language. Here you need and acquire much analytic skills.
I beg your pardon for my awful englisch tongue. French and German do better.
Oh boy the DX-9100! I've integrated and worked on many. The toughest controller for me by far in my career to program. If your ambition is to be able to replace one. The starting point for me would be getting GX-9100 which would be the controller tool needed for uploading the controller program. The Whole M-TOOLS suite is getting real old, and most has to be run in 32bit so keep that in mind. Once you can upload, and view the program for replication you need CCT13.0 which is the controller tool for the FEC controllers which is the branch metasys device or if you use a PCG controller which is the contractor JCI controller. Then you break down the programming in the DX and rewrite in the new controller. That's what we have to do as contractors. Wouldn't be surprised if the mothership JCI has a conversion tool? This is a tall task for someone learning, and the best advice is to get a job at the branch like suggested. If this is an ambition, and your driven to learn? Start gathering software, and controllers and build a test bench at home and begin the process. I spent a ton of my own time when I first started in front of home made trainer boards. It can be both frustrating, and rewarding all at the same time. Good luck!!
The DX-9100 is not very powerful and it cannot handle complex programs if you don't put the programs into the NAE. The new FEC are programmed by applicating complex prefabricated routines where you haven't to think very much. I've programmed about 450 Honeywell Excel500 and -800 controllers without using the .CSD-modules. Here you need to think yourself. More analytic thinking is needed for programming the swiss SAIA controllers.
The DX-9100 is not very powerful and it cannot handle complex programs if you don't put the programs into the NAE. The new FEC are programmed by applicating complex prefabricated routines where you haven't to think very much. I've programmed about 450 Honeywell Excel500 and -800 controllers without using the .CSD-modules. Here you need to think yourself. More analytic thinking is needed for programming the swiss SAIA controllers.
Hmm? I've seen lots of complex DX9100 programs. With expanison modules you could pickup a fair amount points and control most central plants, AHU's, boiler plants. I have seen them used in all those applications. Think you were limited to 12 pids or something like that which might be considered limited. Don't get me wrong. I hate the things! But have never considered them not very powerful. A complete pain in the a** yes. IMHO
Hmm? I've seen lots of complex DX9100 programs. With expanison modules you could pickup a fair amount points and control most central plants, AHU's, boiler plants. I have seen them used in all those applications. Think you were limited to 12 pids or something like that which might be considered limited. Don't get me wrong. I hate the things! But have never considered them not very powerful. A complete pain in the a** yes. IMHO
+1
Plus reverse engineering the programming in a DX-9100 without any original paperwork or written SOO is a real pain. Probably one of the most powerful controllers in its day, and many still chugging along.
In its day it spanked butt on just about anything out there in the 90's. The FEC could handle the DXs point loads around 2005 or so, but it was not until the FAC in about 2015 that there was a full replacement from Johnson, as it could run more programming and had a real time clock.
Of course there may have been other brands a little earlier than 2015 that could replace it, but it was pretty amazing for the 90s for sure.
Since over 27 years I'm programming control devices for HVAC installations. If you want to do this work you have to know four points:
#1: You must (should isn't enough) know all about a HVAC installation. You must be able to analyse and to understand the functioning of an installation. Each installation is different from an other one.
#2: You must know the elements in your toolbox and their application. A handyman (crafter) who is building HVAC installations uses pinces, cutters, saws, solder irons... In your toolbox you'll find tools like logical elements, additioners, subtractors, regulators...
#3: You must be able to analyse an installation and to use the right tools at the right place in the right order.
#4: You must be a criminalist. The points 1 to 3 are used to establish the control and regulation strategy of an existing installation. The criminalist is able to see what has happened before to get an installation into a certain situation. That means the inverse way. It is helpful to analyse and to troubleshoot.
It has helped me very much that I've learned to program in Assembler programming language. Here you need and acquire much analytic skills.
I beg your pardon for my awful englisch tongue. French and German do better.
Plus reverse engineering the programming in a DX-9100 without any original paperwork or written SOO is a real pain. Probably one of the most powerful controllers in its day, and many still chugging along.
Yep have taken many butt kicking's over the years on those things. Hey does anybody have the TAG file is another fun one. But yes for it's time it was plenty powerful, and we still see a ton of them out there. Can't hardly kill the things!!
The Honeywell Grey Book suggestion by kontrophreak is spot on - find it, read it, park it in your 'controls library'.
Attached are some learning 'goodies' that U might find helpful. The block code is CARE programming (Big Red) - if you look carefully you'll see how the code is broken into (3)
groups: 1) Sequencing (On/Off control - the "DI/DO" points), 2) Regulation (modulating things -
dampers, valves, fan/pump speeds - "AI/AO" points), 3) Protection (alarms and shutdowns- typically digital points). That's a start. All the best.
Yeah replicating DX9100 programming into something newer is not for the faint of heart. Its going to be hard to learn anything unless you can get your hands of some of the programming tools etc. here's something to read . . . . do a search for "Modernization Guide for N2 Controllers - Facility Explorer"
As for the Honeywell grey manual it is a pretty hard read for a Norwegian with a "D" in English at school, but I have decided to go all in and bought the "building automation A to Z" from Phil Zito (I guess he is known around here). I plan to take the sequence- and programming course when i'm done. Maybe even the integration course. It's expensive, but Phil is a great teacher.
I will also buy a fieldcontroller for testing. What i cant figure out thought is where i can buy an EasyIO controller. Anyone give me a hint?
I have a few plans for setting up som automation at home:
-My house has a electricity energymeter with an MBUS connection. can i read the MBUS if i get a MBUS to BACnet gateway? EasyIO has one of those on their website.
-Remote open/close and status from garage door (The garage turns away from the house so i can't see the door.)
-Thermostat for my electric floor heating cables
-Maybe pulse reading from water intake
-Some weather sensors if i can find something fun.
-Ventilation
I will use this thread as i progress. Maybe someone else find it useful.
As for the Honeywell grey manual it is a pretty hard read for a Norwegian with a "D" in English at school, but I have decided to go all in and bought the "building automation A to Z" from Phil Zito (I guess he is known around here). I plan to take the sequence- and programming course when i'm done. Maybe even the integration course. It's expensive, but Phil is a great teacher.
I will also buy a fieldcontroller for testing. What i cant figure out thought is where i can buy an EasyIO controller. Anyone give me a hint?
I have a few plans for setting up som automation at home:
-My house has a electricity energymeter with an MBUS connection. can i read the MBUS if i get a MBUS to BACnet gateway? EasyIO has one of those on their website.
-Remote open/close and status from garage door (The garage turns away from the house so i can't see the door.)
-Thermostat for my electric floor heating cables
-Maybe pulse reading from water intake
-Some weather sensors if i can find something fun.
-Ventilation
I will use this thread as i progress. Maybe someone else find it useful.
Well first off thank you for buying my BAS A to Z course.
You've gotten a lot of good advice. The Honeywell Grey Manual is what I taught myself on back in the day and it's a good one but it is hard to read and a bit dry.
I will post my lab list tomorrow that I use in our BAS Startup and Checkout course it's a good list to work with and will allow you to practice most anything.
The quickest way to learn BAS is to get into BAS. I'm not sure about Norway but I know Trend is huge in Europe and if you are able to get Trend certified that would help you to land a job.
Also, Tridium N4 TCP cert is valuable, the exam is not very hard and Tridium is only difficult if you are non-computer minded.
HVAC is definitely a skill you need to know but my belief (which is validated by our students) is that you do not need to do time as an installer, mechanic, or tradesperson. Will it help, sure, is it required no.
I've never installed a coil or a compressor in my life but I can troubleshoot and program a system on par with anyone.
With that being said, there's a good bunch of folks here. The biggest thing I can tell you is to learn to research. Research is massive.
I had a live office hours today and one of my students asked about integrating with a system I'd never heard of before. I types in the system name + bacnet and there in the Google results was a BACnet interface card.
thought I should update this.
First off i want to thank Phil Zito for lowering the price of his cources for a period during this virussituation. It was really fun to go through the Startup and chechout course.
I found out that my company is registered as a Centraline partner (Honeywell), so i got a Niagara workbench engineering license pretty easy. My company even paid for it as training. I also bought a EasyIO FG32+
I run a Niagara softJACE on my computer and communicating with the FG32 through BACnet IP.
In Niagara im working on making my own Norwegian TAG dictionary, and create small programsnippets (is that a word?) as templates. Under is a example of calculating heatwheel recovery efficiency i made.
I still find it difficult to connect things to complete programs. For example a complete airhandler with 2-3 stages of cooling, heatexchanger, heating, Discharge air temp reset in summer and outdoor air temp reset in winter, and safties on everything. It is a lot to connect, but i guess it'll come with time.
Good to see you're making progress. Do not forget to learn about the equipment you will be trying to program, it's interactions with other (sub)systems as well as the fundamental foundation of thermodynamics and HVAC.
kontrol out
"Good" - Jocko "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor "Interoperability? You can't handle interoperability!" - Nathan R. Jessup “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora Watch it here!
I don't know what phil teaches about logic and organization but if you create some folders and stick logic on them with "subroutines" it can make things easier. Break up the different functions on different pages, break the problem down. My first heat pump in a niagara like environment with no example code was a nice little challenge and I think it was spread across six folders or so. A folder handles the room sensor inputs and setpoint adjustment, interpret the override button (unocc override 30,60,90 min, hold for 4 seconds to clear) was a page of logic. Another much simpler page for other inputs and fan alarms. Page for setpoints, another page for pulling everything together and running the outputs. Another page for the BACnet exposed points as it was an integration. Takes a lot of time but it's all reusable.
Whatever vendor you are dealing with has a body of templates you can use. You rarely need to start from scratch but it takes a lot to learn how to operate their templates. Opinions here seem split, use the templates and customize them to suit or just do the job from scratch and keep your own body of templates that you built and know how they work.
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Originally Posted by stability
