Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 17
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2
    Post Likes

    I want to learn building automation

    Hi.
    I Know this is a big topic, but i gotta start somewhere.
    I am 32 year old from Norway.
    I've been working as an electrician for ten years, but two years ago I took a chance on a job in a HVAC company (mostly working on air handling units).
    I really want to learn about programmming regulators and setting up building automation systems. The city i l live in is full of old Johnson DX9100 units that will need to be replaced the next years. I want to be able to do that. where do i start learning? In my company there is BAS knowledge so i need to do it by myself.

    I know a lot about the physical points, and basic knowledge about function block programming.

    Maybe there is some equipment i can buy and set up at home to play with?

    Sorry about the bad english.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    120
    Post Likes
    Try looking here:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGJ...able_polymer=1

    Niagara is something that is available worldwide and can be connected to multiple manufacturer's BACnet, Modbus, or Lonworks controllers. Programming logic in the controllers is typically either block-based or line-based and will vary form one manufacturer to the next. If you understand basic logic (IF, THEN, AND, OR) it applies to any of the languages. There are many controllers that you could buy used (Ebay), the challenge is getting the software. Consider some Sedona based devices, they usually have some sort of free software.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    What? Who? Where?
    Posts
    2,408
    Post Likes
    Google Honeywell Grey Manual and download the pdf.
    The controls manuals sold here are some of the best in the industry: ATP Website.
    If you can find a pdf copy of ASHREA 36P there are good examples of sequence of operations for equipment.

    kontrol out
    "Good" - Jocko
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Interoperability? You can't handle interoperability!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora Watch it here!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kenilworth NJ
    Posts
    1,239
    Post Likes
    I gotta say, your English is WAY better than my Norwegian.
    Many get into the industry by working for a manufacturer or controls vendor. You mentioned Johnson Dx9100s... go work for Johnson. Here in the States, they tend to have a high turnover, and their training is very good. Put in two or three years there, and with some talent and hard work, you can go anywhere. Be prepared to pay for the training in the form of very low wages (thus the turnover).
    Who knows, maybe you will like it and maybe they are different in Norway.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Posts
    153
    Post Likes
    Since over 27 years I'm programming control devices for HVAC installations. If you want to do this work you have to know four points:
    #1: You must (should isn't enough) know all about a HVAC installation. You must be able to analyse and to understand the functioning of an installation. Each installation is different from an other one.
    #2: You must know the elements in your toolbox and their application. A handyman (crafter) who is building HVAC installations uses pinces, cutters, saws, solder irons... In your toolbox you'll find tools like logical elements, additioners, subtractors, regulators...
    #3: You must be able to analyse an installation and to use the right tools at the right place in the right order.
    #4: You must be a criminalist. The points 1 to 3 are used to establish the control and regulation strategy of an existing installation. The criminalist is able to see what has happened before to get an installation into a certain situation. That means the inverse way. It is helpful to analyse and to troubleshoot.

    It has helped me very much that I've learned to program in Assembler programming language. Here you need and acquire much analytic skills.

    I beg your pardon for my awful englisch tongue. French and German do better.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    302
    Post Likes
    Oh boy the DX-9100! I've integrated and worked on many. The toughest controller for me by far in my career to program. If your ambition is to be able to replace one. The starting point for me would be getting GX-9100 which would be the controller tool needed for uploading the controller program. The Whole M-TOOLS suite is getting real old, and most has to be run in 32bit so keep that in mind. Once you can upload, and view the program for replication you need CCT13.0 which is the controller tool for the FEC controllers which is the branch metasys device or if you use a PCG controller which is the contractor JCI controller. Then you break down the programming in the DX and rewrite in the new controller. That's what we have to do as contractors. Wouldn't be surprised if the mothership JCI has a conversion tool? This is a tall task for someone learning, and the best advice is to get a job at the branch like suggested. If this is an ambition, and your driven to learn? Start gathering software, and controllers and build a test bench at home and begin the process. I spent a ton of my own time when I first started in front of home made trainer boards. It can be both frustrating, and rewarding all at the same time. Good luck!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kenilworth NJ
    Posts
    1,239
    Post Likes
    As of now, no conversion tool.

    There are GX programming blocks that exist nowhere else, thus making direct conversion impossible to automate.

    Not to hijack the thread.....
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Posts
    153
    Post Likes
    The DX-9100 is not very powerful and it cannot handle complex programs if you don't put the programs into the NAE. The new FEC are programmed by applicating complex prefabricated routines where you haven't to think very much. I've programmed about 450 Honeywell Excel500 and -800 controllers without using the .CSD-modules. Here you need to think yourself. More analytic thinking is needed for programming the swiss SAIA controllers.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    302
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by stability View Post
    The DX-9100 is not very powerful and it cannot handle complex programs if you don't put the programs into the NAE. The new FEC are programmed by applicating complex prefabricated routines where you haven't to think very much. I've programmed about 450 Honeywell Excel500 and -800 controllers without using the .CSD-modules. Here you need to think yourself. More analytic thinking is needed for programming the swiss SAIA controllers.
    Hmm? I've seen lots of complex DX9100 programs. With expanison modules you could pickup a fair amount points and control most central plants, AHU's, boiler plants. I have seen them used in all those applications. Think you were limited to 12 pids or something like that which might be considered limited. Don't get me wrong. I hate the things! But have never considered them not very powerful. A complete pain in the a** yes. IMHO

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    1,954
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Norriski Tech View Post
    Hmm? I've seen lots of complex DX9100 programs. With expanison modules you could pickup a fair amount points and control most central plants, AHU's, boiler plants. I have seen them used in all those applications. Think you were limited to 12 pids or something like that which might be considered limited. Don't get me wrong. I hate the things! But have never considered them not very powerful. A complete pain in the a** yes. IMHO
    +1

    Plus reverse engineering the programming in a DX-9100 without any original paperwork or written SOO is a real pain. Probably one of the most powerful controllers in its day, and many still chugging along.

    Controls is a lifestyle not a job

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kenilworth NJ
    Posts
    1,239
    Post Likes
    In its day it spanked butt on just about anything out there in the 90's. The FEC could handle the DXs point loads around 2005 or so, but it was not until the FAC in about 2015 that there was a full replacement from Johnson, as it could run more programming and had a real time clock.

    Of course there may have been other brands a little earlier than 2015 that could replace it, but it was pretty amazing for the 90s for sure.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    VA/DC
    Posts
    119
    Post Likes
    This is fantastic advice!




    Quote Originally Posted by stability View Post
    Since over 27 years I'm programming control devices for HVAC installations. If you want to do this work you have to know four points:
    #1: You must (should isn't enough) know all about a HVAC installation. You must be able to analyse and to understand the functioning of an installation. Each installation is different from an other one.
    #2: You must know the elements in your toolbox and their application. A handyman (crafter) who is building HVAC installations uses pinces, cutters, saws, solder irons... In your toolbox you'll find tools like logical elements, additioners, subtractors, regulators...
    #3: You must be able to analyse an installation and to use the right tools at the right place in the right order.
    #4: You must be a criminalist. The points 1 to 3 are used to establish the control and regulation strategy of an existing installation. The criminalist is able to see what has happened before to get an installation into a certain situation. That means the inverse way. It is helpful to analyse and to troubleshoot.

    It has helped me very much that I've learned to program in Assembler programming language. Here you need and acquire much analytic skills.

    I beg your pardon for my awful englisch tongue. French and German do better.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    302
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by klrogers View Post
    +1

    Plus reverse engineering the programming in a DX-9100 without any original paperwork or written SOO is a real pain. Probably one of the most powerful controllers in its day, and many still chugging along.
    Yep have taken many butt kicking's over the years on those things. Hey does anybody have the TAG file is another fun one. But yes for it's time it was plenty powerful, and we still see a ton of them out there. Can't hardly kill the things!!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •