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  1. #326
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    I had a disagreement with the IRS about employee tax payments. They had sent me a check for about $300 saying I had overpaid. I didn't think I had but they disagreed. I cashed the check. Bad idea. Later the IRS changed their mind saying I owed them the $300. Back and forth where they threatened to take my money from my bank etc....

    My contractors were notified that I was in deep doo doo. I sent the IRS their money back but my point is the IRS is very reactive and you will rarely win. What I thought was a disagreement between us turns out NO, they will involve anyone they can if it means leverage. My 1099 contractors assumed the problem was at least bad books and at worse fraud because of the vagueness of their letters to them.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    Just to get the $350.00 pricing thing straight on MRI's. That cash price sounds the same as what Medicare pays for an MRI. I looked at my recent bill for an MRI with contrast & the price was $3,720.00. After Medicare got the bill it was reduced to $390.00. The extra $40.00 was for the contrast & injection. Not every place is going to reduce the cash price that low but my point is that it doesn't sound like some magic number they give you because of using the free market system. It sounds like that particular MRI place decided to give cash customers the same price as they charge Medicare customers but they are not obligated to do so. For a basic MRI without contrast Medicare pays around $350.00 & that has nothing to do with the free market cutting prices. Part of the free market is the ones who can charge $3700.00 for the same service & the insurance companies that are happy paying $1500.00 for a $3700.00 bill to keep up the need for their free market services. There was a time when the free market worked in health care & there was a time when MRI's & open heart surgery were unheard of also. I just don't see those times coming back.
    What a conveluted mess.

    Best way to regulate a market back to sanity is consumers paying advertised prices from a competitively robust market.

    But....

    Like I've said, if people look at all these facts and think single payer is the best answer, great. I dissagree. But I get it.

    But don't think for a second guys like GC wouldn't be shelling out around $20k a year for it.

    My daughter would likely pay $100 or so a month. She's part time, owns no property, etc.

    The system is great for her. But it gets expensive for the middle class and and sucks badly up from there. As long as those here accept that reality, great.

    But, an open competitive market also provides extremely low prices and less out of pocket expenses for the majority of the country.

    Read this to see the mess our system is.... It's got some info I have never been able to find myself up till just now. Notice how much of the info is provided anonymously? Because providers get destroyed if they disclose this information.

    https://clearhealthcosts.com/blog/20...25-2530-draft/

    But the "free market" stuff you said at the end isn't correct. Either that or you just aren't getting what I'm talking about as being the best solution. I'm talking about a guy like me calling 12 MRI providers and finding out their price. Which will be all extremely close because they are competing in a free market. Just like all HVAC companies hourly rate and fees are close to eachother. Maybe one MRI provider gets $50 more because the tech provides a rub and tug at the end. But they will all be in the $300-400 range. I make an appointment for the following day, get my MRI and wip out my HSA credit card and it's done. The free market I'm talking about has nothing to do with corrupt corps and backroom deals crated by the heavy regulations and laws that you described. Not sure what planet that situationis a free and open open consumer driven market.

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    While it is said that perception is reality, the reality is that it is not, just like you say B83's perception of you is not the reality.
    I have said for a long time if you want to find racism you can do it really easy, but it is actually the perception of racism not RACISM. 25 years ago my son was in a karate class, the instructor was a black man that I swear if he wanted to he could kill you with just a yell. Myself and another dad got along well with this instructor and we did a lot of upgrade things for the dojo to make it better for the kids and him. We did enough to be awarded honorary black belts. To make a long story longer, one day we were outside talking about a needed change. As we were talking I let the phrase slip about don't want to n**** rig something. Now the instructor could have been upset and rightfully so but he just smiled and said "Afro-engineer it". He knew there was no negativity meant by my slip of the tongue toward him or anyone else, where others would have been appalled by the comment and started screaming racist, especially today.

    It seems that people are finding it harder and harder to deal with reality but rather deal with perception. Perception is easy to deal with, it is made up in your head. Reality is hard, deny it, berate it, do what ever you want with it but it will not change. For example you can perceive that the A/C is low on refrigerant, you can perceive it needs more refrigerant all you want, you can add refrigerant until it will not take any more, none of that changed the reailty that the TXV was bad.

    We have gotten so bad at perception that we now have whole groups perceiving the same thing. Look at how many people had the perception that tearing down historic monuments would change the history associated with it. The monument is gone but the history remains. Sure they got the satisfaction of "out of sight out of mind", but the reality is there was a reason for that monument and that did not change. We as a nation need to start dealing with reality, anything less will lead us down the wrong road.
    Perception can be opinion when it comes to analyzing events. Perception can also be factual. Two different animals. I remember in philosophy this was studied in depth enough to confuse a person indefinitely.
    But ignoring philosophers, dealing with the difference between perception as opinion or relating to facts is a bit easier. Opinion has a lot to do with looking to support previous attitudes. We all do this even though we often don't critique who ever is adding to our opinions. It's the well we drink from. Wells can be poisonous.

    Perception by analysis is different at least in it's pure form. Eye witnesses are examples of perceptions that are supposed to be free and clear of prejudice but experts say they can be very wrong.
    A purer form can come from a person that can be a witness with nothing to loose. An observer. No personal commitment or view. Just factual. A scientific approach where the scientist has nothing to loose personally.

    When BO came around I thought this might be interesting. Was the USA ready for this.
    No they wearn't. BO brought out the worse in many Americans. Trump was a serial racist and still is. He became the cheerleader for the anti BO movement. Used it to cement his base.
    Right wing Neo-cons are often racists and feed on it. They can hide or make up their own facts but that's the way it is if someone just looks beyond their facade.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    You are allowed to believe or not believe anything you wish, why would that be a concern of mine?
    Maybe because it's an observation of yourself that you placed on a public forum. Visibility.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    What a conveluted mess.

    Best way to regulate a market back to sanity is consumers paying advertised prices from a competitively robust market.

    But....

    Like I've said, if people look at all these facts and think single payer is the best answer, great. I dissagree. But I get it.

    But don't think for a second guys like GC wouldn't be shelling out around $20k a year for it.

    My daughter would likely pay $100 or so a month. She's part time, owns no property, etc.

    The system is great for her. But it gets expensive for the middle class and and sucks badly up from there. As long as those here accept that reality, great.

    But, an open competitive market also provides extremely low prices and less out of pocket expenses for the majority of the country.

    Read this to see the mess our system is.... It's got some info I have never been able to find myself up till just now. Notice how much of the info is provided anonymously? Because providers get destroyed if they disclose this information.

    https://clearhealthcosts.com/blog/20...25-2530-draft/
    I agree it is a convoluted mess & it is a big problem that so much of the information that should be available to the public is kept secret. We obviously don't agree on how to fix things & I admittedly don't know how well a single payer system would work but I haven't heard any other ideas that I believe will work at all. Maybe coming up with a law that made it illegal to charge different prices for the same service depending on who's paying the bill would be a step in the right direction. The healthcare providers say they do charge everyone the same but they get around that by using the word "discount" when they bill the insurance companies. Get rid of insurance networks since all reimbursements to providers would be the same no matter what insurance company was used. Make it so doctors & hospitals didn't have to sign contracts with insurance companies in order to take their insurance. I don't know if any of my ideas are politically feasible but I don't think that the system we have now should be allowed to continue.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    I am personally better off under the Trump administration financially, I am better off for what Hillary and the dems would have changed for the worse. The far left democrat party has gone socialistic and currently competes for how far left their ideas can move.
    Hugh, you can't know what might have happened, better or worse. I don't know how you can rationally arrive at your conclusion.
    We are a socialist country in many ways now and I doubt you would have a problem with it if you needed help from, for instance, our police, fire dept. roads and all the other government services. Let me know if you want to privatize these services because it was already tried.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    I wasn't thinking you are taking sides. I'm assuming a super smart guy like you wants full bore federal single payer.

    I'm just glad we now have verification for these bone heads who can't bother to click on links I've provided.

    So, Scoobie. There you have it. What you believed was completely impossible is reality. Cash paying customers pay 20% in some instances. MM paid about 25% normal provider/insurance pricing.

    It's amazing to me these geniuses couldn't even click links I provided showing these drastic price reductions.

    Watch, they still won't admit the truth.

    Hey MM, take a guess how much the place I quoted charges to fix a broken arm or leg. Go ahead. Toss a crazy number on it.

    My guess would depend on the severity of the broken arm or leg. Also, would xray costs be included? We could be talking about a simple fracture with no bone displacement or we could be talking about a compound fracture. I assume you are referring to something straight forward, a simple fracture with a quick setting, and a run of the mill cast. I'm kind of winging it here, but I'll throw out the amount of $450, including xrays.

    *Disclaimer: I don't really follow these healthcare threads, so I am not too familiar with the sites/practices you've mentioned.

    By the way, I want whatever works. Unlike you, I am as wary of the rapacious private sector as I am of the incompetence of the public sector.

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Hugh, you can't know what might have happened, better or worse. I don't know how you can rationally arrive at your conclusion.
    We are a socialist country in many ways now and I doubt you would have a problem with it if you needed help from, for instance, our police, fire dept. roads and all the other government services. Let me know if you want to privatize these services because it was already tried.
    A society that provides services for it's population is much different from a society that subscribes to a Socialist Agenda. These kinds of services have been provided since before America became civilized and shouldn't be confused with a Socialist philosophy/agenda or used as rationale for Socialism. It's merely part of civilization.

  9. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Perception can be opinion when it comes to analyzing events. Perception can also be factual. Two different animals. I remember in philosophy this was studied in depth enough to confuse a person indefinitely.
    But ignoring philosophers, dealing with the difference between perception as opinion or relating to facts is a bit easier. Opinion has a lot to do with looking to support previous attitudes. We all do this even though we often don't critique who ever is adding to our opinions. It's the well we drink from. Wells can be poisonous.

    Perception by analysis is different at least in it's pure form. Eye witnesses are examples of perceptions that are supposed to be free and clear of prejudice but experts say they can be very wrong.
    A purer form can come from a person that can be a witness with nothing to loose. An observer. No personal commitment or view. Just factual. A scientific approach where the scientist has nothing to loose personally.

    When BO came around I thought this might be interesting. Was the USA ready for this.
    No they wearn't. BO brought out the worse in many Americans. Trump was a serial racist and still is. He became the cheerleader for the anti BO movement. Used it to cement his base.
    Right wing Neo-cons are often racists and feed on it. They can hide or make up their own facts but that's the way it is if someone just looks beyond their facade.
    Excellent post, hvacker!

  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Perception can be opinion when it comes to analyzing events. Perception can also be factual. Two different animals. I remember in philosophy this was studied in depth enough to confuse a person indefinitely.
    But ignoring philosophers, dealing with the difference between perception as opinion or relating to facts is a bit easier. Opinion has a lot to do with looking to support previous attitudes. We all do this even though we often don't critique who ever is adding to our opinions. It's the well we drink from. Wells can be poisonous.

    Perception by analysis is different at least in it's pure form. Eye witnesses are examples of perceptions that are supposed to be free and clear of prejudice but experts say they can be very wrong.
    A purer form can come from a person that can be a witness with nothing to loose. An observer. No personal commitment or view. Just factual. A scientific approach where the scientist has nothing to loose personally.

    When BO came around I thought this might be interesting. Was the USA ready for this.
    No they wearn't. BO brought out the worse in many Americans. Trump was a serial racist and still is. He became the cheerleader for the anti BO movement. Used it to cement his base.
    Right wing Neo-cons are often racists and feed on it. They can hide or make up their own facts but that's the way it is if someone just looks beyond their facade.
    Do you base this comment solely on his 'anti-BOism'?

  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    My guess would depend on the severity of the broken arm or leg. Also, would xray costs be included? We could be talking about a simple fracture with no bone displacement or we could be talking about a compound fracture. I assume you are referring to something straight forward, a simple fracture with a quick setting, and a run of the mill cast. I'm kind of winging it here, but I'll throw out the amount of $450, including xrays.

    *Disclaimer: I don't really follow these healthcare threads, so I am not too familiar with the sites/practices you've mentioned.

    By the way, I want whatever works. Unlike you, I am as wary of the rapacious private sector as I am of the incompetence of the public sector.
    Non compound fracture. So an xray, set the bone and a cast. Plus follow ups.

    $40. And the provider is very reputable. They also provide free 2am house calls. Free.

    It's a reputable clinic with a dozen doctors. They charge $50 for adults per month. $20 for kids. All healthcare is included. They provide most medications as cost which is literally $2 or $5 a month. Labs are $5 or $10. But physicals and any procedure they can provide in house is free. And they provide many. They work crazy deals with labs, pharmacy providers and specialist for any additional needs.

    So a family of 4 pays $120 a month. That plus a catastrophic plan and an HSA will have your family covered securely.

    Catastrophic plans would cost approx $200 a month and have a $3500 deductible(I can provide links for if you'd like). So for $320 a month total, a family of 4 is covered. Fully. Toss $300 a month on top of that to make a nice cushion in an HSA. In one year you would have enogh to cover that deductible. If you don't use it, you can ease back on the HSA contribution.

    So for a max of $7,400 a year, you are fully covered. After you get enough to cover your deductible you could stop paying into the HSA. So your yearly costs would drop to $3800 a year. Family of 4, fully covered.

    Beats the hell out of the $16-20k I'd pay with single payer. GC too. That's a boatload. Beats the hell out of the $20k I'm going to have to cough up this year. Beats the hell out of the nearly $12k a year I'm paying now for my principle if I don't even seek any medical care.

    My wife is running around today meeting a couple doctors. It's amazing how many times they've apologized for the disorganized mess the entire system is. The doctors and nurses are great. She said they've all been absolutely amazing. It's the FUBAR'd system which is the way it is because the indivial has no power. This wasn't our healthcare system 30 or 40 years ago. These things don't happen when the consumer is running the show. And on top of the numbers I listed above, that type system would do wonders to straighten out this mess. Single payer won't. It will likely get worse. And sane person should be able to admit that.

    We don't need everyone participating in a system similar to above. Netsalt and GC love saying that I'm saying we do. 30% of the population would do wonders for the entire system. 40 or 50% would be perfection.

    Yes, we still need to address the needy. States are very capable of setting up basic safety nets. And we(individuals) will be able to control it more so than a Washington system.

    I've said before that even Canada is smart enough to handle their system at the province level.

    Once it hits Washington, we are in a world of hurt.

  12. #337
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    Thread Starter
    Socialist countries are great places to live. Don't take my word for it move there and write us if you can get paper and pencil. Hitler's party was socialist.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Non compound fracture. So an xray, set the bone and a cast. Plus follow ups.

    $40. And the provider is very reputable. They also provide free 2am house calls. Free.

    It's a reputable clinic with a dozen doctors. They charge $50 for adults per month. $20 for kids. All healthcare is included. They provide most medications as cost which is literally $2 or $5 a month. Labs are $5 or $10. But physicals and any procedure they can provide in house is free. And they provide many. They work crazy deals with labs, pharmacy providers and specialist for any additional needs.

    So a family of 4 pays $120 a month. That plus a catastrophic plan and an HSA will have your family covered securely.

    Catastrophic plans would cost approx $200 a month and have a $3500 deductible(I can provide links for if you'd like). So for $320 a month total, a family of 4 is covered. Fully. Toss $300 a month on top of that to make a nice cushion in an HSA. In one year you would have enogh to cover that deductible. If you don't use it, you can ease back on the HSA contribution.

    So for a max of $7,400 a year, you are fully covered. After you get enough to cover your deductible you could stop paying into the HSA. So your yearly costs would drop to $3800 a year. Family of 4, fully covered.

    Beats the hell out of the $16-20k I'd pay with single payer. GC too. That's a boatload. Beats the hell out of the $20k I'm going to have to cough up this year. Beats the hell out of the nearly $12k a year I'm paying now for my principle if I don't even seek any medical care.

    My wife is running around today meeting a couple doctors. It's amazing how many times they've apologized for the disorganized mess the entire system is. The doctors and nurses are great. She said they've all been absolutely amazing. It's the FUBAR'd system which is the way it is because the indivial has no power. This wasn't our healthcare system 30 or 40 years ago. These things don't happen when the consumer is running the show. And on top of the numbers I listed above, that type system would do wonders to straighten out this mess. Single payer won't. It will likely get worse. And sane person should be able to admit that.

    We don't need everyone participating in a system similar to above. Netsalt and GC love saying that I'm saying we do. 30% of the population would do wonders for the entire system. 40 or 50% would be perfection.

    Yes, we still need to address the needy. States are very capable of setting up basic safety nets. And we(individuals) will be able to control it more so than a Washington system.

    I've said before that even Canada is smart enough to handle their system at the province level.

    Once it hits Washington, we are in a world of hurt.
    I don’t know Brian. It’s hard to believe someone could provide all the things you say about Atlas for the dirt cheap prices. Forty dollars to X-ray and cast a broken arm. Meds for a couple bucks a month. Monthly payments less than a cell phone bill. Free 2am visits included. I just don’t believe it’s legit. There is a catch somewhere. Just like an hvac contractor advertising system change outs for 3500 bucks. Them docs from Nigeria?

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