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Thread: No Fuses

  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    This is a quick answer:

    422.31(A) and (B) Appliance Disconnects


    Permanently connected appliances rated at not over 300 volt-amperes or 1/8 horsepower (hp) and motor operated appliances over 1/8 hp now require disconnects within sight or lockable in accordance with 110.25. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. This will require an identified accessory for circuit breakers.


    https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-...017-nec-part-6

    220 Volt appliances, such as a AH & ODU,... Each have to have a "Dedicated Circuit", & can not be "Jointly tied together". this is shown on page 62 of the PDF. Yes, it is in reference to the 2013 NEC Code,but,... I honestly believe that this has not changed in the 2017 NEC

    Pages 64 & 65 of the PDF also shows, in reference to Art. 440.4, that Air Conditioning & Heat Pump Equipment is to have a "Fused Disconnect", sized per the Data plate requirements of the Appliance

    https://www.com.ohio.gov/documents/b...ionHandout.pdf
    Article 422 deals with appliances including self-contained room air conditioners, but not full-blown air conditioners.

    So far as I know, 440.22 is the section that deals with the disconnecting means, and while they require a disconnect within line of sight (aside from a few exceptions) but to my knowledge it does not require specifically a fused disconnect at each unit, like your Ohio code requires.

    To clarify the situation I have come across, it's typically a condo with a teeny-tiny breaker panel, fully loaded before you can even get the condensing unit breaker in.

    So they run a properly sized conductor for the air handler/electric heater, then, using a junction at the air handler disconnect, they run the condensing unit wiring from there to the outdoor unit (fused) disconnect, which has a smaller fuse and conductor requirement anyway.

    So the circuit is protected adequately, it's just one of those things that can rub a guy the wrong way because it feels like the lazy way out.

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  2. #41
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    220 Volt appliances, such as a AH & ODU,... Each have to have a "Dedicated Circuit", & can not be "Jointly tied together". this is shown on page 62 of the PDF. Yes, it is in reference to the 2013 NEC Code,but,... I honestly believe that this has not changed in the 2017 NEC

    Does this apply to mini splits? Or have I been installing them wrong for yrs?

  3. #42
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    Hey; check this out from your PDF, David.

    "Permanently connected air conditioning equipment permitted on same heater individual branch circuit"

    How about 'dem apples? :Grin:

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    Hey; check this out from your PDF, David.

    "Permanently connected air conditioning equipment permitted on same heater individual branch circuit"

    How about 'dem apples? :Grin:

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
    My Understanding of that is it pertains to the AH only Shell & not the ODU. In lieu of that, I'm thinking that's an error in printing that "fell through th' cracks".

    I Guarantee that if I installed a Sub-panel, or a "Disconnect", on the circuit that was sized for the AH/ Electric heat only, & took a feeder out to the ODU, that the Inspectors, both State & Local, that I've had a very good work relationship with, would be Shocked & Red Tag me.

    And that pictorial of 422:12 is showing a Disconnect, ... Not a Sub-panel.

    The NEC is explicit about not tying Two 230 Volt Appliances, being a AH & ODU under one "Disconnect".

    On the other hand, ..... One 230 Volt SER Feeder coming from a breaker, in the Main Panel, being "Properly Sized" for the load, can feed a Sub-panel that is dedicated to the Heating/ Cooling System where the AH & ODU, as well as any other "Appliance" that required a separate circuit such as a 120 Volt Air Cleaner, is allowed by the NEC.

    If, "said" sub-panel is located "In Sight" of the AH, & easily "accessible", .....then the AH & it's KW Package, would not be required to have a "Disconnect" protected by Fuse, or breaker. But, ... any 120 volt appliance would not be allowed to "Tap in to" the 230 volt circuit, & it would have to be placed on a separate 120 Volt circuit provided at that Sub-panel. The only way around that would be "if" the Manufacturer provided "Taps" within the control board of the AH, that energized the 120 Volts in conjunction with the Blower being energized.

    "Dem Apples" are providing a very interesting topic Shell.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    My Understanding of that is it pertains to the AH only Shell & not the ODU. In lieu of that, I'm thinking that's an error in printing that "fell through th' cracks".

    I Guarantee that if I installed a Sub-panel, or a "Disconnect", on the circuit that was sized for the AH/ Electric heat only, & took a feeder out to the ODU, that the Inspectors, both State & Local, that I've had a very good work relationship with, would be Shocked & Red Tag me.

    And that pictorial of 422:12 is showing a Disconnect, ... Not a Sub-panel.

    The NEC is explicit about not tying Two 230 Volt Appliances, being a AH & ODU under one "Disconnect".

    On the other hand, ..... One 230 Volt SER Feeder coming from a breaker, in the Main Panel, being "Properly Sized" for the load, can feed a Sub-panel that is dedicated to the Heating/ Cooling System where the AH & ODU, as well as any other "Appliance" that required a separate circuit such as a 120 Volt Air Cleaner, is allowed by the NEC.

    If, "said" sub-panel is located "In Sight" of the AH, & easily "accessible", .....then the AH & it's KW Package, would not be required to have a "Disconnect" protected by Fuse, or breaker. But, ... any 120 volt appliance would not be allowed to "Tap in to" the 230 volt circuit, & it would have to be placed on a separate 120 Volt circuit provided at that Sub-panel. The only way around that would be "if" the Manufacturer provided "Taps" within the control board of the AH, that energized the 120 Volts in conjunction with the Blower being energized.

    "Dem Apples" are providing a very interesting topic Shell.
    I disagree. Here's the full article 422.12:

    422.12CentralHeatingEquipment. Centralheatingequipment otherthanfixedelectricspace-
    heatingequipmentshall besuppliedbyanindividualbranchcircuit.
    ExceptionNo.1: Auxiliaryequipment,suchasapump,valve,humidifier, orelectrostaticair
    cleanerdirectlyassociatedwiththeheatingequipment, shallbepermittedtobeconnectedto
    thesamebranchcircuit.
    ExceptionNo.2: Permanentlyconnectedair-conditioningequipment shallbepermittedtobe
    connectedtothesamebranchcircuit.
    An air handler would be considered "Central heating equipment" when equipped with an electric heater kit (electric furnace)

    I'm not disputing that Ohio inspectors would fail you, as local codes can and are often more strict than the documents they draw from.

    This would be no different than a RTU with a "single-point kit". The electric heater/air handler circuit is properly sized and protected by the breaker in the panel per nameplate, and then a fused disconnect is protecting the lesser outdoor unit load.


    The heater is not a simultaneous load anyway, but even if it happened to be running at the same time, the circuit would be protected just fine because the conductor to the air handler is sized for the resistive load of the electric heater (rather than just an inductive load like the outdoor unit) and the breaker would trip before the ampacity of the circuit was exceeded.




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  6. #45
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    I can reference a specific situation that applies to this discussion where fused disconnects are required. I service a building with (4) 5-ton and (2) 3-ton units all located next to each other. All of these units are fed from a set of two 208v 100 amp 3-phase circuit breakers going to a wiring trough which has individual fused disconnects coming off of it. There are (2) 5-ton and (1) 3-ton units tapped onto each breaker line.

    I don't know whether this would still be an acceptable installation, but it still works just as fine now as when it was installed in the 80's. The main reoccurring problem lately is that surges will pop the big 100 amp breakers if lightning hits while the units are running, and this takes out all the units on one bank until the breaker is reset.

    I imagine the reason is to run only two sets of fat copper from the panel, instead of 6 sets of medium-gauge wire and 6x 3phase breakers taking up 18 panel spaces.

  7. #46
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    One thing that just came across my mind, is what does the Data Plate of the equipment state? Maximum HACR Fuse? Breaker?

    Where would a Fuse go? You're not going to put one in A Service Panel, nor Sub-panel, so that leaves a "Fused Disconnect", or a Motor Controller.

    Better yet, ... The 2017 NEC now addresses SCCR, or "Short Circuit Current Rating", which is addressed in Art. 430 & 440. In the PDF below, it addresses this where it concerns Our Trade beginning on page #10.

    http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...-2017-sccr.pdf
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    One thing that just came across my mind, is what does the Data Plate of the equipment state? Maximum HACR Fuse? Breaker?

    Where would a Fuse go? You're not going to put one in A Service Panel, nor Sub-panel, so that leaves a "Fused Disconnect", or a Motor Controller.

    Better yet, ... The 2017 NEC now addresses SCCR, or "Short Circuit Current Rating", which is addressed in Art. 430 & 440. In the PDF below, it addresses this where it concerns Our Trade beginning on page #10.

    http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...-2017-sccr.pdf
    If the circuit breaker in the panel is properly sized you can use a non-fused disconnect.

    Well, at least in places other than Ohio I suppose.

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  9. #48
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    Shell, what does your local AHJ say?
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  10. #49
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    Maximum breaker or fuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    One thing that just came across my mind, is what does the Data Plate of the equipment state? Maximum HACR Fuse? Breaker?

    Where would a Fuse go? You're not going to put one in A Service Panel, nor Sub-panel, so that leaves a "Fused Disconnect", or a Motor Controller.

    Better yet, ... The 2017 NEC now addresses SCCR, or "Short Circuit Current Rating", which is addressed in Art. 430 & 440. In the PDF below, it addresses this where it concerns Our Trade beginning on page #10.

    http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...-2017-sccr.pdf
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    Maximum breaker or fuse.
    BBeermne, how does your AHJ interpret that?
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    BBeermne, how does your AHJ interpret that?
    Max breaker or fuse.

    For what it is worth, I am not an installer. But I have waited for a few inspectors through the years. And I have never seen them look at the nomenclature plate. They are more concerned about proper fittings and support spacing and that everything looks like it is done in a clean workmanship like manner.

    They also want to see all Breakers and disconnects turned off as though the equipment had never been turned on until they give the okay. Another thing that makes them happy is if you have all of the covers on any junction boxes removed so they can have easy inspection.

    Heck, just a few months ago I had a warranty call on a new unit we installed. The tech put a 230 volt disconnect on a 460 unit and the inspector never caught it. I called the office to report it so they could schedule to have the correct disconnect put on the unit.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  13. #52
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    As if 10mm sockets weren’t already hard to find. LOL


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