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  1. #53
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    Brian,
    Instead of going over and over trying to sound convincing that a hospital can run better on 1/10th of its income by being forced to compete, why don't you go into detail on how that will come to be? That is the part missing in your argument.

    As it is now people don't care if an appendectomy is $20K or $80K. ACA mandates a max out of pocket of $14K. As long as we have insurance we are removed from the bidding/pricing process, so do you suggest everyone give up their insurance to get the ball rolling?

  2. #54
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    You are what you eat.

    Why do we have so many fat people ??

    Number 2 diabetes can be prevented and removed by proper food.

    Number 1 diabetes can be reduced by proper foods.

    As I mentioned before, you are what you eat.

    Roy
    A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
    Lysander Spooner

  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Brian,
    Instead of going over and over trying to sound convincing that a hospital can run better on 1/10th of its income by being forced to compete, why don't you go into detail on how that will come to be? That is the part missing in your argument.

    As it is now people don't care if an appendectomy is $20K or $80K. ACA mandates a max out of pocket of $14K. As long as we have insurance we are removed from the bidding/pricing process, so do you suggest everyone give up their insurance to get the ball rolling?
    Sugury Center Of Oklahoma survives just fine charging 60 or 70% less. How's that happen?

    And a catastrophic plans along with a HSA is part of the free market solution. You won't get whacked with a $20k appendectomy.

    The problem is you guys look at a one size fits all solution. What I described above would be perfect for middle class and up.

    Lower income earners, handicapped and the truly needy can be handled by other means. And those means will be far less stressed when health care for them costs 50% less or more.

    When I explain how the free market can be introduced to GREAT effect on the entire market, you guys bring up "What about this guy?" and "What about that guy?" "Your plan won't work for those guys!"

    Yeah, I know. I never implied that because won't work for everyone AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. But let people who can do it...... do it. You need a little bit of financial and employment security for it to work. It would work great for me and my family. And think how well it would work for you and yours. Your entire family fully insured and all medical bills paid for in full for likely under $10k a year. And let everyone reap the rewards of costs dropping like a rock.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Your entire family fully insured and all medical bills paid for in full
    I have that now.

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sooty View Post
    I have that now.
    Yes. I realize that. And you pay about $13k(average for a middle class family) a year in taxes and $250-300 for a suplimental plan a month to get that Heath care you brag about. Oh, also add in the things not covered by your single payer or your suplimental.

    There is a better way. We've got a scheme like that going on here too. We pay about the same. It all depends on your income. As you move north of the middle class, things get very expensive in Canada. And I bet I get better and faster service than you. But don't trust me on that. Look up any study.

    You don't have it better than us. We just have different negatives and different positives. But averaged out, the both stink equally.

    BTW, just to put it into perspective......My actual healthcare is probably better than yours. The actual health care. But just for arguments sake, let's say they are equal. If you add up every dime the average middle class Canadian pays in health care, it's North of $16k a year for the average family of 4. I can produce the studies(not that a guy like you would actually read them). My max out of pocket is $13,400 a year. And that includes every dime to finance my insurance and my health care bills. It even includes the money I don't even see that my employer kicks in for my premium. You could subtract that amount because you leftists insist that it's not part of my pay. If you do that, my max out of pocket (using the brainwashed leftist's definition) is only $10k a year.

    In Canada just my single payer tax bill would be about double that. Then you have to add the suplimental, the copays and the out of pocket costs for things not covered.

    Just because the majority of what you pay for your single payer is through withholding taxes, it doesn't mean you aren't paying it. You do realize that, don't you?

    I know all of the above went over your head. But trust me.... It was a great counter argument to your post. And all of it is accurate.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Yes. I realize that. And you pay about $13k(average for a middle class family) a year in taxes and $250-300 for a suplimental plan a month to get that Heath care you brag about. Oh, also add in the things not covered by your single payer or your suplimental.

    There is a better way. We've got a scheme like that going on here too. We pay about the same. It all depends on your income. As you move north of the middle class, things get very expensive in Canada. And I bet I get better and faster service than you. But don't trust me on that. Look up any study.

    You don't have it better than us. We just have different negatives and different positives. But averaged out, the both stink equally.

    BTW, just to put it into perspective......My actual healthcare is probably better than yours. The actual health care. But just for arguments sake, let's say they are equal. If you add up every dime the average middle class Canadian pays in health care, it's North of $16k a year for the average family of 4. I can produce the studies(not that a guy like you would actually read them). My max out of pocket is $13,400 a year. And that includes every dime to finance my insurance and my health care bills. It even includes the money I don't even see that my employer kicks in for my premium. You could subtract that amount because you leftists insist that it's not part of my pay. If you do that, my max out of pocket (using the brainwashed leftist's definition) is only $10k a year.

    In Canada just my single payer tax bill would be about double that. Then you have to add the suplimental, the copays and the out of pocket costs for things not covered.

    Just because the majority of what you pay for your single payer is through withholding taxes, it doesn't mean you aren't paying it. You do realize that, don't you?

    I know all of the above went over your head. But trust me.... It was a great counter argument to your post. And all of it is accurate.
    I'm sorry Brian, I don't' buy any of your numbers.

    For instance, your max out of pocket is actually $7,800 in premiums and $14,000 in deductibles, co-insurance and co-pays. That is closer to $22,000/yr.

    If average Canadians had $13,000 deducted from their paychecks just for health insurance, what is the total withdrawn from that person's paycheck, 50% for a family of four?

    I've looked at Canadian pay-stubs and they do not resemble that.

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Sugury Center Of Oklahoma survives just fine charging 60 or 70% less. How's that happen?

    And a catastrophic plans along with a HSA is part of the free market solution. You won't get whacked with a $20k appendectomy.

    The problem is you guys look at a one size fits all solution. What I described above would be perfect for middle class and up.

    Lower income earners, handicapped and the truly needy can be handled by other means. And those means will be far less stressed when health care for them costs 50% less or more.

    When I explain how the free market can be introduced to GREAT effect on the entire market, you guys bring up "What about this guy?" and "What about that guy?" "Your plan won't work for those guys!"

    Yeah, I know. I never implied that because won't work for everyone AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. But let people who can do it...... do it. You need a little bit of financial and employment security for it to work. It would work great for me and my family. And think how well it would work for you and yours. Your entire family fully insured and all medical bills paid for in full for likely under $10k a year. And let everyone reap the rewards of costs dropping like a rock.
    Do you realize that healthcare providers MUST charge the prearranged price when you use your insurance? There is NO negotiating! You can only negotiate with cash. So that $80K appendectomy will be $80K, regardless of your HSA.

  8. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I'm sorry Brian, I don't' buy any of your numbers.

    For instance, your max out of pocket is actually $7,800 in premiums and $14,000 in deductibles, co-insurance and co-pays. That is closer to $22,000/yr.

    If average Canadians had $13,000 deducted from their paychecks just for health insurance, what is the total withdrawn from that person's paycheck, 50% for a family of four?

    I've looked at Canadian pay-stubs and they do not resemble that.
    Where did you get those numbers? My policy is a max out of pocket of $5k a year. After that insurance pays 100%.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Do you realize that healthcare providers MUST charge the prearranged price when you use your insurance? There is NO negotiating! You can only negotiate with cash. So that $80K appendectomy will be $80K, regardless of your HSA.
    I'm confused about what you are saying. An HSA is used to pay medical expenses with cash.

    Use your HSA just like cash. Tax deferred cash, BTW.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  10. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Where did you get those numbers? My policy is a max out of pocket of $5k a year. After that insurance pays 100%.
    Forgot to answer this. The $13k is total tax from all sources. It's not just withholding. Just like us, Canadians get whacked by taxes 100 different ways. The $13k is the percentage of the total taxes as a percent that goes to their single payer system.

    The average Candian pays about 42% of their income in taxes.

    https://business.financialpost.com/o...argest-expense


    "In reality, the average Canadian household spends more on taxes than any other expense. Specifically, in 2016 the average Canadian family (including single Canadians) earned $83,105 in income and paid $35,283 in total taxes. That’s 42.5 per cent of income going to taxes."
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  11. #63
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    Brian, for the moment, let's move past the never ending debate of single payer vs what ever it is that you have down there. Refocus on the actual actions required to drive down cost.

    You say the free market = cheaper healthcare. Ok, great. Take me through from start to end. Because you are losing me along the way.

    Additionally, what is your thoughts on the possible repercussions of cheaper healthcare? If the drug companies drop their prices 10 fold, what effect does that have on research and development of new treatments and cures?

    I can't help but think of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o

  12. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Forgot to answer this. The $13k is total tax from all sources. It's not just withholding. Just like us, Canadians get whacked by taxes 100 different ways. The $13k is the percentage of the total taxes as a percent that goes to their single payer system.

    The average Candian pays about 42% of their income in taxes.

    https://business.financialpost.com/o...argest-expense


    "In reality, the average Canadian household spends more on taxes than any other expense. Specifically, in 2016 the average Canadian family (including single Canadians) earned $83,105 in income and paid $35,283 in total taxes. That’s 42.5 per cent of income going to taxes."
    We've extensively covered this before. Not that long ago actually. I can't be assed going over it again in detail. All the studies I've read state roughly these numbers.

    What's on the paystub isn't a reflection on what our healthcare costs.

  13. #65
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    Brian, do you have a rebuttal for this exchange? Or do you accept that the buying power of single payer and government regulation is why Canadian drug prices are lower. Chalk one up for socialism.

    Why don't your insurance companies (privatized single payer if you will) also demand better pricing? Probably because they are in on the vig. Drug company makes it. Convinces insurance to pay for it. Insurance marks it up and sells it to us.

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