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  1. #27
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    Hmmm makes me wonder what mechanical background following engineers/controls guys screw up's I have dealt with in the past:

    Person that controls an on/off compressor like a chilled water valve.
    Condenses a non-condensing boiler.
    Runs evap fan speed so low that evap coil freezes and or floods back compressor.
    Runs economizer and mechanical DX cooling with OAT temps below 45 deg F, with no mind to mixed air temps.
    Runs head pressure so low doesn't meet differential required on expansion device.
    Overriding conductivity control on a fluid cooler/cooling tower.
    Not being concerned with minimum airflow needs when running DX.
    There's plenty more.

    Plain and simple changing compressors, TXV's, scrubbing tubes, etc. will give you a true appreciation, knowledge and concern for the system(s) your dealing with. I've ran into more 'control' guys trying to control DX compressors that really didn't know what the hell they were doing, "Oh it's a piss poor unit, service replaces a compressor every couple of years on every unit", only to later find one after hours override zone they allowed DX to run with 1/3 of the minimum required airflow.
    That said I hope you get more experience in service, than install. Service will make you troubleshoot why something happened.
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    My 5 yr old son "Dad, Siri is not very smart when there's no internet."


  2. #28
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    Speaking from the Hvac/Refrigeration side of your efforts, I commend you for your present focus on obtaining a background in more than one discipline. As to the recommendation I would add only that the better you understand what you are controlling the better control tech you will become. I have trained several tech's thru the years and they all seem to have come to the same conclusion. it is a lot easier to do great things as a tech when you are well versed on what you are controlling.
    OFG..

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by crab master View Post
    Hmmm makes me wonder what mechanical background following engineers/controls guys screw up's I have dealt with in the past:

    Person that controls an on/off compressor like a chilled water valve.
    Condenses a non-condensing boiler.
    Runs evap fan speed so low that evap coil freezes and or floods back compressor.
    Runs economizer and mechanical DX cooling with OAT temps below 45 deg F, with no mind to mixed air temps.
    Runs head pressure so low doesn't meet differential required on expansion device.
    Overriding conductivity control on a fluid cooler/cooling tower.
    Not being concerned with minimum airflow needs when running DX.
    There's plenty more.

    Plain and simple changing compressors, TXV's, scrubbing tubes, etc. will give you a true appreciation, knowledge and concern for the system(s) your dealing with. I've ran into more 'control' guys trying to control DX compressors that really didn't know what the hell they were doing, "Oh it's a piss poor unit, service replaces a compressor every couple of years on every unit", only to later find one after hours override zone they allowed DX to run with 1/3 of the minimum required airflow.
    That said I hope you get more experience in service, than install. Service will make you troubleshoot why something happened.
    So you had people who were idiots. Going to a trade school is a poor way to fix stupid.

    The solution is to actually learn the principles of control. You don't need to spend time changing compressors to know how they work. That's just a really poor analogy to justify your path.

    The reality is if all you want to do is to be in controls then going to an HVAC apprenticeship is an opportunity cost timesuck.

    No amount of horror stories with idiots touching things they shouldn't because they were probably like most folks and had no desire to study after hours will change that fact.

  4. #30
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    There's a difference between an idiot/stupid and ignorance.

    There's also a difference between someone with a journeyman license and one without. Doesn't make one smarter than the other, but you talk instant gratification, I'd put $ down his instant gratification will impair his future earning potential vs. gaining another license. Hell, what's a few years, besides it'll give him first hand experience to see what career path he really wants. Not only that it'll help him identify experts in the field and contacts to gain further knowledge from.

    Also your opportunity cost time suck, let's see who would more controls companies want to hire and who would make the most:
    A) A person with a journeyman electrical license
    B) A person with a journeyman HVAC license
    C) A person with a journeyman electrical and HVAC license.

    Granted up to individual and type of work but in the H-TALK world and likely even others, that order would 9/10 times be C, B, A...and one cannot deny C would likely have far more doors opened up to them.

    For all I care he could go to Switch gear and Generator control and his HVAC license would mean very little comparatively speaking, but again he's asking a advice from a HVAC site and let's just say such electrical company was considering starting ventures into HVAC, oh earning potential just went up further...
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    My 5 yr old son "Dad, Siri is not very smart when there's no internet."


  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by crab master View Post
    There's a difference between an idiot/stupid and ignorance.

    There's also a difference between someone with a journeyman license and one without. Doesn't make one smarter than the other, but you talk instant gratification, I'd put $ down his instant gratification will impair his future earning potential vs. gaining another license. Hell, what's a few years, besides it'll give him first hand experience to see what career path he really wants. Not only that it'll help him identify experts in the field and contacts to gain further knowledge from.

    Also your opportunity cost time suck, let's see who would more controls companies want to hire and who would make the most:
    A) A person with a journeyman electrical license
    B) A person with a journeyman HVAC license
    C) A person with a journeyman electrical and HVAC license.

    Granted up to individual and type of work but in the H-TALK world and likely even others, that order would 9/10 times be C, B, A...and one cannot deny C would likely have far more doors opened up to them.

    For all I care he could go to Switch gear and Generator control and his HVAC license would mean very little comparatively speaking, but again he's asking a advice from a HVAC site and let's just say such electrical company was considering starting ventures into HVAC, oh earning potential just went up further...
    The facts don't line up with this. I have a macro view of hiring by OEM's and MSI's and they hire IT, TAB, and Electrical significantly more than HVAC. I have story after story of folks coming out of trades school or apprenticeship who are not being taught the difference between controls theory and HVAC theory. There is a difference.

    Once again read

    "The reality is if all you want to do is to be in controls then going to an HVAC apprenticeship is an opportunity cost timesuck."

  6. #32
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    I did read and even re-used your words.

    Your facts and world macro view must be much different than mine and others micro view. Agree to disagree, best wishes.
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    My 5 yr old son "Dad, Siri is not very smart when there's no internet."


  7. #33
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    Is it me or is this a monthly thread. Maybe a sticky thread called “wanna be a controls tech” is past due…

    Quote Originally Posted by crab master View Post
    A) A person with a journeyman electrical license
    B) A person with a journeyman HVAC license
    C) A person with a journeyman electrical and HVAC license.
    Mostly agree.

    Said it many times, IMO there are 3 skills I look for. HVAC, electrical, IT/ general computer skills. Prof licenses & degrees, yep they show something. Wouldn’t hesitate from hiring a 2-3yr non-licensed sharp guy that had at least 2/3.

    Have 1, would have to be in dire need anyone with a pulse
    Have 2, take regularly as we grow
    Have 3, the hiring sign is always lit

    Quote Originally Posted by philzito View Post
    I have a macro view of hiring by OEM's and MSI's and they hire IT, TAB, and Electrical significantly more than HVAC. "
    TAB is interesting, haven’t looked there too much. HVAC/general computer, check.
    IT guys? Electrical / HVAC, doubtful. Still roles for them in most shops. Analytics, general office IT, customer IT interface roles. How many of these positions vs controls techs that are 95%+ billable?

    Macro view lol, really?
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Is it me or is this a monthly thread. Maybe a sticky thread called “wanna be a controls tech” is past due…



    Mostly agree.

    Said it many times, IMO there are 3 skills I look for. HVAC, electrical, IT/ general computer skills. Prof licenses & degrees, yep they show something. Wouldn’t hesitate from hiring a 2-3yr non-licensed sharp guy that had at least 2/3.

    Have 1, would have to be in dire need anyone with a pulse
    Have 2, take regularly as we grow
    Have 3, the hiring sign is always lit



    TAB is interesting, haven’t looked there too much. HVAC/general computer, check.
    IT guys? Electrical / HVAC, doubtful. Still roles for them in most shops. Analytics, general office IT, customer IT interface roles. How many of these positions vs controls techs that are 95%+ billable?

    Macro view lol, really?
    Yep really several of the oems and quite a few of the si's work with us to train their people and they tell us what they are hiring for. Hvac knowledge from a systems perspective is enough they don't need mechanics.

    Also TAB is the most untapped market for talent. They know systems have most likely used a BAS to input calibration factors, and understand construction work.

    And a new TAB person can be hired for cheap.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by philzito View Post
    TAB is the most untapped market for talent.
    Agreed, TAB -> controls path never came to mind. Wages for TAB might be going up now lol.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  10. #36
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    I'll also add that ME grads for areas with energy credits shouldn't be ignored.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  11. #37
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    There's a Local that very strong in Service. They have HVAC, Refrigeration, and BACS in a common core for 2 years. They concentrate on electrical and the refrigeration cycle. BACS splits off at year 3. HVAC and Refrigeration splits at year 4. This is only what I've heard. This is more than likely one of a handful, at most, that does it like this.
    The Service training in this Local and my neighboring home Local is atrocious. Also, 0 BACS training.

    Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by philzito View Post
    So you had people who were idiots. Going to a trade school is a poor way to fix stupid.

    The solution is to actually learn the principles of control. You don't need to spend time changing compressors to know how they work. That's just a really poor analogy to justify your path.

    The reality is if all you want to do is to be in controls then going to an HVAC apprenticeship is an opportunity cost timesuck.

    No amount of horror stories with idiots touching things they shouldn't because they were probably like most folks and had no desire to study after hours will change that fact.
    I've always tried to express my opinion about my experience in the field coming from a mechanical background as a plus. Compared to the IT, TAB or computer degree person. Now that being said I would never classify any one of them as idiots. I've changed well over a 100 compressors in my career, and you can't replace that experience with learning how they work. I guess by reading a book? Or maybe you tube? I carry 5 licenses and did go to a HVAC trade school so maybe my view is clouded by my own path. I've been a full time control guy for about 7 years now and my mechanical background has been invaluable in my growth in that position. For me not a timesuck. I'm very lucky because where I work we have a very good mix of all control guys. Some very strong in the IT computer side. Some strong in the controls mechanical side. So lots of potential to pull from the knowledge base we have to grow in your career. Anybody trying to further themselves by going to trade school, going to college, learning TAB, or just showing up for work for that matter aren't idiots, or stupid, or dumb in my book. The true idiot is one who can work, and won't. And the government who continues to fill the ones with their hand out, with my money.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norriski Tech View Post
    I've always tried to express my opinion about my experience in the field coming from a mechanical background as a plus. Compared to the IT, TAB or computer degree person. Now that being said I would never classify any one of them as idiots. I've changed well over a 100 compressors in my career, and you can't replace that experience with learning how they work. I guess by reading a book? Or maybe you tube? I carry 5 licenses and did go to a HVAC trade school so maybe my view is clouded by my own path. I've been a full time control guy for about 7 years now and my mechanical background has been invaluable in my growth in that position. For me not a timesuck. I'm very lucky because where I work we have a very good mix of all control guys. Some very strong in the IT computer side. Some strong in the controls mechanical side. So lots of potential to pull from the knowledge base we have to grow in your career. Anybody trying to further themselves by going to trade school, going to college, learning TAB, or just showing up for work for that matter aren't idiots, or stupid, or dumb in my book. The true idiot is one who can work, and won't. And the government who continues to fill the ones with their hand out, with my money.
    I referred to people who didn't know how things worked yet still trying to manipulate said things as idiots.

    If you don't know a damper needs to be open but yet choose to operate a system that makes you an idiot.

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