How much programming is involved in controls?

[futurecontrols]

This might be an ignorant question because I don't know too much about the field but I am interested in the future of building automation and was wondering how much programming is involved. I really enjoy programming and would like to base my career around it but I keep getting different answers from those that I asked. Some make it sound like its strictly programming like with Niagra and others make it sound like its mostly field work with installations. Is there a path to a mostly programming position through controls?

Thanks in advanced and if this is poorly worded or posted in the wrong spot lmk.

[NickDeal]

This might be an ignorant question because I don't know too much about the field but I am interested in the future of building automation and was wondering how much programming is involved. I really enjoy programming and would like to base my career around it but I keep getting different answers from those that I asked. Some make it sound like its strictly programming like with Niagra and others make it sound like its mostly field work with installations. Is there a path to a mostly programming position through controls?

Thanks in advanced and if this is poorly worded or posted in the wrong spot lmk.

In my experience you always start in the field. There are exceptions if you are an engineer or salesman, but generally you will start in the field. Being new and depending on the company you might not see any programming for quite a while. Most of the "programmers" I have seen came by that position through odd ball ways (like being good a programming and getting hurt). Most of them still do field work. Most companies aren't going to trust a new tech with no prior experience to programming. When I started with Siemens I had already been the industry for 6 years with other companies and did some major jobs before they hire me. They still sent me with a mentor and didn't really let me do stuff on my own until I had gone through some classes. That being said though it also depends on the company. Sometimes they don't need programmers but they need field techs. When I was with JCI it started that way. I did really do any programming until I been there about a year and the PM trusted my abilities. Before that I was doing VAV, AHU, Chiller Plant, ect checkout.

[futurecontrols]

In my experience you always start in the field. There are exceptions if you are an engineer or salesman, but generally you will start in the field. Being new and depending on the company you might not see any programming for quite a while. Most of the "programmers" I have seen came by that position through odd ball ways (like being good a programming and getting hurt). Most of them still do field work. Most companies aren't going to trust a new tech with no prior experience to programming. When I started with Siemens I had already been the industry for 6 years with other companies and did some major jobs before they hire me. They still sent me with a mentor and didn't really let me do stuff on my own until I had gone through some classes. That being said though it also depends on the company. Sometimes they don't need programmers but they need field techs. When I was with JCI it started that way. I did really do any programming until I been there about a year and the PM trusted my abilities. Before that I was doing VAV, AHU, Chiller Plant, ect checkout.

Thanks for the reply Nick. Yeah I figured that would be the case, and im def not opposed to doing field work at first. Do you have any suggestions on things I can work on that would be beneficial? I have an associates degree in software engineering and just got hired doing another subset of hvac (TAB) and I'm studying for my network+ certification. Is there anything else I could be doing or maybe focus more on?

[NickDeal]

Security is becoming a big thing now. All of the controls companies are playing catch up. Other than that just focus on the basics. Being able to break a sequence down into parts is very important. Since every company does their programming differently I would say just keep in practice.

[Ray7129]

I will agree with what NickDeal said. I work for Siemens and came in with prior networking and HVAC experience. They sent me to some classes and I worked under a mentor for 6 months until I proved myself. My situation is a bit unique though....I work for a small branch that does high volume. Not sure how it is with other control companies but Siemens has a service side and a solutions side with their field techs. Service normally works on older legacy products with minimal programming while the solutions side does programming all the time. Solutions does new construction and retrofit jobs so with us being a small branch we wear many hats. In larger offices they have specialized people that do only programming, graphics, etc...so it really depends on your company and location. I normally have installers that do the brunt of the physical work but on small retrofit jobs I may do it all from start to finish: Install devices, run wire, preform start up & setup, assist test and balance, and do the commissioning.

[tridiumtech]

If you would post your email address in your profile I'd be happy to send you my "Niagara Workbench Guide" -
based on Tridium courses, work experiences & reading all those Tridium Guides. Very comprehensive, but I try to keep it straightforward - lots of step-by-step instructions with screen captures. "SNap CASH G" model:
S-Station
N - Network/Ctlr.
P - Proxy Points
C - Control Strategies (there's your 'programming' - just a part of the picture)
A - Alarms
S - Scheduling
H - Histories
G - Graphics

That previous post about working in the field is spot on. When I started as a DCC tech they gave me a 2-way radio and me another did tech did the Point-to-Point (P2P) checkout (field devices + notebook). For the programming to work solid the P2P has to be solid - don't take that for granted. Take time to learn the field gear (actuators, sensors) + IT gear (switches, routers, etc). And find a 'lab' to learn to DDC tool (class is just the beginning).

[gschra11]

I think it varies based upon who you work for.

I work for one of the largest Automated Logic dealers in the US. As such, we have dedicated software engineers that do nothing but software every day. It works for us because it keeps expectations, quality and consistency high, but admittedly we get away with it because we are big enough to devote full-time people to doing just that. I hear most controls companies have techs write their software and I have heard many complain about inconsistencies as a result. You have to wear more hats when you are smaller.

Regardless of the control manufacturer, I can't imagine doing any type of programming without HVAC experience. If you don't understand how HVAC systems work, learning the control system up and down will do you no good. People with computer science backgrounds are not qualified to program HVAC controls. HVAC controls programming is not computer programming; they operate on two different layers of the "software stack."

In summary, if you are interested in programming in the world of HVAC and BAS, you would serve yourself and your future employer well by getting an HVAC education first then moving to controls from there.

Shameless plug: If serious, I highly recommend the HVAC Engineering Technology program at Ferris State University. Their Bachelors Degree teaches you HVAC, Energy Management and Controls all at the same time. It has served me exceptionally well over the years and I can't say enough good things about it. I still refer to my notes that I took 12 years ago in class.

[Ray7129]

If you would post your email address in your profile I'd be happy to send you my "Niagara Workbench Guide" -
based on Tridium courses, work experiences & reading all those Tridium Guides. Very comprehensive, but I try to keep it straightforward - lots of step-by-step instructions with screen captures. "SNap CASH G" model:
S-Station
N - Network/Ctlr.
P - Proxy Points
C - Control Strategies (there's your 'programming' - just a part of the picture)
A - Alarms
S - Scheduling
H - Histories
G - Graphics

That previous post about working in the field is spot on. When I started as a DCC tech they gave me a 2-way radio and me another did tech did the Point-to-Point (P2P) checkout (field devices + notebook). For the programming to work solid the P2P has to be solid - don't take that for granted. Take time to learn the field gear (actuators, sensors) + IT gear (switches, routers, etc). And find a 'lab' to learn to DDC tool (class is just the beginning).

Would you send me a copy please....every now and then we have to tie our stuff into Tridium jace panels. I've been trying to get my branch to send me to training on it but we have been so busy this past year.

[MaxBurn]

"Programming" might not be what you are picturing. Lots of systems today use logic block based programing.

https://www.automatedlogic.com/specs...s_r2_hires.pdf

4.1 example is old but methods are all the same.
http://eikonforeducators.automatedlo...e?OpenDocument

[gschra11]

"Programming" might not be what you are picturing. Lots of systems today use logic block based programing.

https://www.automatedlogic.com/specs...s_r2_hires.pdf

4.1 example is old but methods are all the same.
http://eikonforeducators.automatedlo...e?OpenDocument

EIKON FOR EDUCATORS STILL EXISTS?!?! Wow! I thought that died a long time ago!

I'm saving this for future use!

[MaxBurn]

It's 4.1, not the recent 7. Still it hasn't been taken down anyway.

[futurecontrols]

Hey Ray,

I just saw this now, thanks for the reply. I am definitely interested in the solutions side. How much time do you spend on site vs. programming? I'm currently doing TAB and kinda love being on site so the idea of being able to program and also get on site is appealing. Also, I'm studying to get my CCENT, would you say thats valuable to a controls employer or is it overkill?

[Ray7129]

Hey Ray,

I just saw this now, thanks for the reply. I am definitely interested in the solutions side. How much time do you spend on site vs. programming? I'm currently doing TAB and kinda love being on site so the idea of being able to program and also get on site is appealing. Also, I'm studying to get my CCENT, would you say thats valuable to a controls employer or is it overkill?

It really just depends on the size of your office and if the techs are all around controls specialists. The main site I work at is a Naval Military base and I do a lot of remodel work. For example , the Navy takes a building and guts it. We have installers that will go out and run all the conduit, pull the wire, and install devices. Then I come in and build the database, do point to point check out, startup field devices (VAVs), write the programs based off the submittal/blueprints, test the code, work with TAB, build the graphics, create the schedules and trends, and finally go through everything with the commissioning agent. This site is fairly large and we maintain our own network/server so I keep up with and issue instance numbers, IP addresses, etc. A CCENT would definitely help but not exactly required. As long as you have a good working knowledge of network topography and Server setup/maintenance you should be ok. Youd be amazed what you can learn in the evenings on YouTube when it comes to router setups and sub-netting lol. The main thing is you just have to want to learn A LOT!! The crazy problems usually dont hit all at once so you have time to do research on the oddball problems that hang you up. For me it's the best of both worlds because I get time in the field with hands on and time behind a computer programming.

[numbawunfela]

If you would post your email address in your profile I'd be happy to send you my "Niagara Workbench Guide"

I would like a copy. Greatly appreciated Tridium tech.

[numbawunfela]

Regardless of the control manufacturer, I can't imagine doing any type of programming without HVAC experience. If you don't understand how HVAC systems work, learning the control system up and down will do you no good. People with computer science backgrounds are not qualified to program HVAC controls. HVAC controls programming is not computer programming; they operate on two different layers of the "software stack."

I would tend to agree with this... however many controls programmers get their HVAC experience as a programmer. It is the way it goes. This shows in their work, but it is a fact.
I also work for a smaller branch, I do about 50/50 service and projects. Diagnosing comm issues and busted stuff - then being the programming support to a batch of 3 installers retrofitting a bunch of fan coils with DDC controls. I find that programming requires a bit of exposure and ability with a voltmeter and getting your hands dirty. Doing nothing at all but touching a computer is pretty rare in my experience.

[JCIman]

I find that programming requires a bit of exposure and ability with a voltmeter and getting your hands dirty. Doing nothing at all but touching a computer is pretty rare in my experience.

It is ideal for someone to work their way into programming through well balanced field experience, but I'm seeing the labor pool change.
The Millennials make up about 15% of JCI's workforce now, and that is expected to go to 85% in the next 10 years. JCI has spent quite a bit of time and effort studying this in order to get in front of it. Companies like JCI will have to restructure how they do their work to accommodate the way the labor pool WANTS to do things, and there are allot of people that just want to jump into programming after completing school. The main takeaway from the training that I took last year, was that the work force demographics are rapidly changing, and it is the company that will need to change to meet the needs of the new workforce. It is a major change from what us Boomers are used to, but I'm convinced it will be the only way for controls companies to survive.

[MaxBurn]

, but I'm convinced it will be the only way for controls companies to survive.

Agreed. Also seems like there is a huge pool of CS focused people out there, whenever we put out a offer for something more in line with that we get buried and can't figure out how to Wade through them.

[orion242]

the work force demographics are rapidly changing

Seems like the natural cycle of the older generation calling it quits and the newer ones getting into the workforce to me.

Between our techs and service / analytics group, its 85+% millens now here. Our office admin staff is 2/3rds millens also.

the company that will need to change to meet the needs of the new workforce. It is a major change from what us

We did get them the fancy work stations that raise up so you can stand at your desk. Never understand why the heck one would want to stand, but to each his own.

Don't know, maybe this is an issue with the large branch outfits. We sure don't seem to have any issue acquiring and retaining them. Can't say we do anything too special. Maybe not being an old corporation with with less than stellar reputation goes a ways.

[control$]

I run into a lot of installers and "tech's" that want to program. But I think it's got to be harder now since it seems nobody programs anymore. I ask "what have you programmed at home?"...and get blank stares..It ain't mandatory if your a solid HVAC guy...you'll learn. But what happened to the computer nerds? Most of the programming back then was just revisions of BASIC, so it just came naturally to most of the 20 year old's back in the early '90's. Compiling basic or VB to Machine language was the norm. What's the norm now?? Copy and paste...repeat.
I find after 26 years it's still 50/50 service and construction..Same for when I worked at a company with 7 people or ???? thousand now. It's a lot of Spackle bucket engineering.

[futurecontrols]

It really just depends on the size of your office and if the techs are all around controls specialists. The main site I work at is a Naval Military base and I do a lot of remodel work. For example , the Navy takes a building and guts it. We have installers that will go out and run all the conduit, pull the wire, and install devices. Then I come in and build the database, do point to point check out, startup field devices (VAVs), write the programs based off the submittal/blueprints, test the code, work with TAB, build the graphics, create the schedules and trends, and finally go through everything with the commissioning agent. This site is fairly large and we maintain our own network/server so I keep up with and issue instance numbers, IP addresses, etc. A CCENT would definitely help but not exactly required. As long as you have a good working knowledge of network topography and Server setup/maintenance you should be ok. Youd be amazed what you can learn in the evenings on YouTube when it comes to router setups and sub-netting lol. The main thing is you just have to want to learn A LOT!! The crazy problems usually dont hit all at once so you have time to do research on the oddball problems that hang you up. For me it's the best of both worlds because I get time in the field with hands on and time behind a computer programming.

Wow your gig sounds like my dream scenario, thanks for the help.