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  1. #14
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    Nice rant.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  2. #15
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    That kind of thing heatingman is all too common. Before retiring a lot of engineers hated me. In your case If I were the balancer I would have written the engineer and explained the situation. If he blew me off as did happen to me on occasion I would have included the problems in the balance summary.
    I was kicked off more than one job for being critical of the design and got kicked off one job for laughing at the engineer in front of a crowd. He deserved it because we were trying for the third time to get a chiller to start after the emergency generator kicked in after a planned power failure. I told him his procedure wouldn't work all three times and he got all upset because "this isn't my first rodeo" so he said. When it failed the third time I lost it and couldn't help but laugh. Trying not to laugh made it worse.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    That kind of thing heatingman is all too common. Before retiring a lot of engineers hated me. In your case If I were the balancer I would have written the engineer and explained the situation. If he blew me off as did happen to me on occasion I would have included the problems in the balance summary.
    I was kicked off more than one job for being critical of the design and got kicked off one job for laughing at the engineer in front of a crowd. He deserved it because we were trying for the third time to get a chiller to start after the emergency generator kicked in after a planned power failure. I told him his procedure wouldn't work all three times and he got all upset because "this isn't my first rodeo" so he said. When it failed the third time I lost it and couldn't help but laugh. Trying not to laugh made it worse.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    That kind of thing heatingman is all too common. Before retiring a lot of engineers hated me. In your case If I were the balancer I would have written the engineer and explained the situation. If he blew me off as did happen to me on occasion I would have included the problems in the balance summary.
    I was kicked off more than one job for being critical of the design and got kicked off one job for laughing at the engineer in front of a crowd. He deserved it because we were trying for the third time to get a chiller to start after the emergency generator kicked in after a planned power failure. I told him his procedure wouldn't work all three times and he got all upset because "this isn't my first rodeo" so he said. When it failed the third time I lost it and couldn't help but laugh. Trying not to laugh made it worse.
    In my experience engineers are never held to account. And nobody other then a service guy trying to figure out WTF ever actually looks at the reports. The other thing thats a popular requirement for a job closeout is “customer training” videos. What a joke those are. Last one I watched was a salesmen “training” a building engineer how to operate a large commercial comfort cooling condenser. The video was 3 minutes long, and there was a foot of snow on and all around the condenser.

    How in the F is that customer training?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. Likes BALloyd liked this post
  6. #18
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    I only had to do one training session and I cut it short. I told them unless you have the expertise and test equipment leave the SOB alone. That got a laugh but the facilities manager was glad I told them that.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    Do either of you guys think commissioning will get the point across that a legitimate balance is absolutely necessary for commercial buildings or do you think most commissioning efforts fall short?
    I always thought TAB was a part of commissioning. Or, is that just startups on all the equipment, followed by a building walkthrough?

    In my experience, startups were often performed before systems were completed. Chillers started before all AHU's were online, for example. And before controls were completed.

    I believe the equipment startup techs are responsible only for their equipment. Although, it's best for everybody if he "assumes responsibility" for the entire site. Unfortunately, due to incomplete sites, or time restraints, he isn't always able to do so. This is one of the reasons that TAB is important. It should be the last item on the checklist, I believe.
    In honor of RichardL: "Ain't 'None' of us as smart as 'All' of us".

  8. #20
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    TAB is totally separate from commissioning although a lot of TAB firms do commissioning.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #21
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    Which brings up another point. So far, for whatever reason, I've been thinking air flow for the most part.

    When it comes to hydronics, then it can be much more critical. Sure, you might get lucky, but in my experience, balancing the flow through the various devices is very important for proper operation, long life, and overall efficiency.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  10. #22
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    Chilled water balance is the most critical. Hot water is so forgiving it's hard to screw up unless the system is under designed. Chilled water balance forces water where you want it by limiting the amount of water any device can take. If not balanced properly chilled water systems can be a disaster. Believe it or not most balancers are not good at water balance.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #23
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    I've done a few through the years. Depending on the age of the system, the location of the circuit setters, and if the original engineering prints are available, sometimes it goes fast, but it usually takes more time than you think it will. At least if you keep going back to check and recheck everything after you've already made one or two passes.


    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    Chilled water balance is the most critical. Hot water is so forgiving it's hard to screw up unless the system is under designed. Chilled water balance forces water where you want it by limiting the amount of water any device can take. If not balanced properly chilled water systems can be a disaster. Believe it or not most balancers are not good at water balance.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  12. #24
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    After you have done a lot of water balance it gets a lot easier. The recommended method is to preset the circuit setters by calculating the pressure drop needed. In my opinion that is a waste of time. If you start nearest the pump and set the flow slightly lower than design two passes will usually do it. When I was doing a lot of water balance I fairly often got almost all of them on the first pass. Even at that you still have to read the circuit setters twice.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  13. #25
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    Wayne, we always use auto-flow valves on vavs. They still need to be checked during tab, but no adjustment needed.

  14. #26
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    Wayne,
    To respond to the title of the thread, ABSOLUTELY in the context of Hydronics and VAV Systems !
    After being a "Controls Guy" for 23+ years a good TAB person is worth every cent.

    Readers Digest version of 1 particular project: 7 Story building retrofit of 2 RTU's and 150+ VAV boxes. Told the customer "you really need to re-balance". They drug their feet for 6 month, finally consented and we recommended 3 TAB companies (all 3 excellent). 6 months after TAB completed Chief Building Engineer tells me that the "Energy savings paid for the Balance 2 month ago" !

    I agree with retro-commissioning, to a point. Too many of the folks that do it try to justify their existence with a mountain of paperwork and less than complete TAB.
    If sense were so common everyone would have it !
    Stupid should Hurt !
    If people took care of their cars like they do their HVAC Systems you'd see a lot more people walking
    !

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