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  1. #1
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    ALC cannot discover routers?

    I got a helpful response in anothe thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    Remove the cable that's on the Rnet buss and land there, it's electrically the same as Local Access terminal.

    Remember to turn Dip switch 1 back off or things attached to Rnet/S2 won't work.
    In the interest of keeping that thread on topic, I have a follow up....

    I appreciate the tip MaxBurn! I wondered about leaving the switch on, so I turned it off before I left.

    I forgot there was a WebCTRL ninja on the forums....

    He wanted to monitor some points I on my network, and said if I added him onto my MSTP trunk, he would be all set. So I did, the connection I made to his controller was to lower his baud rate to match mine. When he got all connected I could see everything from my JACE. However he could only see controllers. He could NOT see anything that was a router. He could not discover my JACE, my diagnostic router, or the emerson sitelink. If it was a router, he did not see it. He could manually enter the devID, and devInstance and pluck individual points - i think he only did that on a controller though....

    At any rate, I was happy and he was not so i will be back to pull CAT5 later for a bacnet IP integration. Seemed odd the kind of issues he was having. He had to phone a friend a few times, good for him for looking for help though. As long as they pay me I will go back as many times as they like.

    Thoughts?
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  2. #2
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    If the router has a device instance it should show up. Are these on the same IP network? Possible circular route issue with adding MS/TP?

    Whatever on the MS/TP buss should be modeled in SiteBuilder NET tree, devices, routers, network numbers etc. This helps people understand what's going on and it will call out problems.

    I don't generally so much care what shows up in discovery, I've had plenty of problems with it myself and it's really just a crutch. Much more important that all BACnet rules are followed and that the controllers that hold the programs can bind to the points they need.

    When these two systems were joined together was there a overview done to make sure there were no device instance or network number collisions?

  3. #3
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    Whatever on the MS/TP buss should be modeled in SiteBuilder NET tree, devices, routers, network numbers etc.

    When these two systems were joined together was there a overview done to make sure there were no device instance or network number collisions?
    They did not share an IP network. There were 8 controllers on the niagara side, and 2 including the Sup on the ALC side, so we were able to sort out the topology pretty quick. No conflicts. I changed my net # around to match his, then not match his, for toubleshooting purposes.

    I was looking at niagara, not at WEBCTRL, so I am passing only half the story.

    He saw the controllers fine, but not the emerson site link, which routed the 2 Lieberts beneath him - and he therefore did not see the Lieberts. Did not see my router, which actually had routing turned off to avoid a loop. And could not see the JACE, who was the sup for the controllers. The devId of my JACE was different than his DevIDs and I moved it to something below 127, as I have had schneider read it as a MAC and so anything over 127 does not read through....
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  4. #4
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    Your terminology with device IDs and MACs is a little confusing.
    Any BACnet device ID between 0-4194303 should work as long as it's unique. (IP or MSTP or Arcnet)
    But MSTP MAC address ranges are different, generally 0-127 will work, but you should try and have continuous (minimize gaps) addresses starting at 0.
    Having the JACE set to 127 could be a problem if your Max Master property isn't set correctly somewhere. The token could wrap around without going up to the JACE.
    General best practice is to put the router should be at the beginning of the address range.
    Routing will have to be enabled on the JACE to let him escape the MSTP network and see any IP devices on your side.

    A quick wireshark capture would probably make the problem obvious.
    You can add a forwarding wire tap to your MSTP network port on the JACE (from the BacnetUtil Palette), to send the MSTP traffic to a computer running wireshark to analyze the traffic.

  5. #5
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJ View Post
    Your terminology with device IDs and MACs is a little confusing.

    A quick wireshark capture would probably make the problem obvious.
    You can add a forwarding wire tap to your MSTP network port on the JACE (from the BacnetUtil Palette), to send the MSTP traffic to a computer running wireshark to analyze the traffic.
    I know it sounds like I am conflating MSTP MAC and Device Instance (DevID). I had a JACE inegration into a Schneider ASP that was annoying because the Schneider system seemed to be reading the DevID of the JACE as the MAC, and would not make friends until I put the DevID below 127. So it is not that I dont understand the difference, it is that sometime odd-ball inter-vendor integrations do weird things.

    I did nkt know about that cool wireshark trick. Thanks! I use a router or mstp adapter, but it is handy if I do not need to pull that out.

    We will be going BacnetIP, at the ALC guys request.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJ View Post
    You can add a forwarding wire tap to your MSTP network port on the JACE (from the BacnetUtil Palette), to send the MSTP traffic to a computer running wireshark to analyze the traffic.
    Wait a minute....time out.

    Are you telling me that a Jace can facilitate mstp wireshark captures! Seems that was a highly touted feature in some other OEM router....name escapes me now.

    Have to check that out. Tip of the year award to SJ if so.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  7. #7
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    So this is something they slipped into N4 somewhere along the line.

    How the hell did you hear about it? Nothingsville on Niag central on this.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  8. #8
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Wait a minute....time out.

    Are you telling me that a Jace can facilitate mstp wireshark captures! Seems that was a highly touted feature in some other OEM router....name escapes me now.

    Have to check that out. Tip of the year award to SJ if so.
    Pretty sure KMC, Loytec, and CC all brag about their ability to take the capture for analysis to the router which can then be exported to your laptop.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post
    Pretty sure KMC, Loytec, and CC all brag about their ability to take the capture for analysis to the router which can then be exported to your laptop.
    Nope...

    CC doesn't have this. KMC, doubt it but just started to dive into all the docs. The KMC router I ordered is still somewhere between CA and the US.

    Boiling all the publicly available routers down into a spreadsheet compared against all the different features.

    Max Ethernet support
    Max baud rate
    Max BTD/FDR entries
    Slave proxy
    Country of origin
    Power consumption
    Port Isolation
    UL/BTL/FCC listing
    Din rail mount style
    Seperate tx/rx leds
    Dimensions
    BACnet version supported
    BACnet time sync
    and on, and on, etc

    If anyone can think on a spec they want to see, PM me now.

    Looking at the BACrouter, CC BASRT-B, KMC, and Loytec routers only unless someone points out another publicly available MSTP router of note.

    There are plenty of vendor only devices that can do this, but they are not publicly available or the cost is insane. Comparing a Jace to a $99 dollar router is pointless on all levels.
    Last edited by orion242; 03-27-2019 at 11:08 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  10. #10
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    Not sure if you can get one for cheap for testing but the one I have been eyeing is one of these:
    http://download.mbs-solutions.de/han...uch_EN_web.pdf

    What I like about it is all the IP filtering and network security features it gives you built in to lock down unwanted sources if you want to, thought that is a pretty cool feature.
    Have not tried it and don't think it is in the lower price scale but cool nonetheless.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Not sure if you can get one for cheap
    Betting not, though an interesting unit. The encrypted channel between -02s is something I haven't seen in any other unit. Would need a pair of those to look into that and I'm guessing that's going to set me back $1k or more.

    Will request a quote just for giggles. Might be something we could use on a few sites.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  12. #12
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    Confirmed, not cheap. Just delivery to the US is a couple hundred.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  13. #13
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    Sounds like that is a device that is ready to move to SC once they finalize it.

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