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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    Complete Replacement Install

    Ok... 3300 sqft home approximately 13 years old in the Chicagoland area. Have had three contractors visit for quotes, all of them highly rated and well known in the area. All three measured supply and return trunks and counted supply/return vents. 2 said ducting was appropriate though on the small side of that range. 1 said it was all undersized. All agreed could use a few more returns on 1st floor.

    1 contractor never supplied a quote, the one that said it was all undersized and wanted to redo all trunks.

    The other two came out approximately $500 difference.

    1) Armstrong A802V - 135k btu 80% 2 stage
    Armstrong 16LS - 5 ton 2 stage 16 seer

    2) Carrier 24ACB760A003 - 135k btu 80% 2 stage
    Carrier 58ctw135122 - 5 ton 2 stage 16 see

    To me these seem to be equal systems and contractors? Am I missing anything, is Carrier equal to Armstrong?




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  2. #2
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    Jan 2004
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    Why only use an 80% efficient furnace? 135,000 BTU input furnace is roughly 13.5 CFH, and gives you 108,000 BTUs of heat.

    A 120,000 BTU input 95% efficient furnace is roughly 12.0 CFH, and gives you 114,000 BTUs of heat.

    So a 2 stage 95% furnace would use around 16% less gas.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Billington Heights, NY
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    135k? That's monstrous. Did any one of those determine you actually needed that amount with a Manual J?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    New England
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    Armstrong has a limited lifetime HX warranty to original registered owner, the Carrier has the standard 20 year warranty on those 80 % furnaces.

    The Carrier reaches up to 17 SEER the Armstrong up to 16 SEER depending on indoor selection.

    Any mention from them about rebates, as your state or local utility company may offer them on the A/C side and even the blower motor being variable may apply.

    Ask them what standard features does the A/C come with, such as a compressor sound blanket, or both a hi and low pressure switch etc. if any of that is important to you.

    More peace of mind, but need to pay for would be purchasing a extended labor warranty they go up to 10 years on most brands.

    Have them quote AHRI matched systems, and register your units.

  5. #5
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    Apr 2016
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Why only use an 80% efficient furnace? 135,000 BTU input furnace is roughly 13.5 CFH, and gives you 108,000 BTUs of heat.

    A 120,000 BTU input 95% efficient furnace is roughly 12.0 CFH, and gives you 114,000 BTUs of heat.

    So a 2 stage 95% furnace would use around 16% less gas.
    Natural gas is supercheap, the pay back from 80 - 95 is about the expected life of the unit. I’m more concerned with electrical use as that’s what is expensive.


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  6. #6
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    Apr 2016
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    Thread Starter
    So all of these folks offered multiple options... I hate options, well at least this many options. I'm not super concerned with gas efficiency, its cheap. On the other hand I am concerned with electricity usage, Generally we are comfortable in the home, yes there are extreme weather conditions that occasionally challenge that comfort and one room that historically is warmer or cooler then the rest.

    We've spent money having the house air sealed and more insulation added to the attic space. We went from 3495 cfm50 --> 2265 cfm50 or approximately 8 to 4.5 air exchanges per hour (ach50). This number will drop some more when the basement sealing/insulation is completed.

    So with cheap gas and expensive electric what makes the most sense with a budget up to around the 11k mark.


    Carrier 24ACB760AB03 -Performance Series
    -Air Conditioner
    -Two Stage
    -Sound level as low as 72 dBA


    Carrier CNPVP6124ALA -Evaporator Coil


    Carrier 59TP6A120E2422 -Performance Series
    -Gas Furnace
    -Two Stage 96%

    AHRI Matchup:
    AHRI # : 9119540
    Cooling Capacity : 56500
    SEER : 16
    EER : 12.5


    CARRIER PERFORMANCE 96% 2 STAGE VARIABLE SPEED AND CARRIER PERFORMANCE 16 SEER 2 STAGE


    Carrier 24ACC660A003 -Performance Series
    -Air Conditioner
    -Single Stage


    Carrier CNPVP6024ALA -Evaporator Coil


    Carrier 59TP6A120E2422 -Performance Series
    -Gas Furnace
    -Two Stage 96%

    AHRI Matchup:
    AHRI # : 202474594
    Cooling Capacity : 54000
    SEER : 15
    EER : 12.5


    CARRIER PERFORMANCE 96% 2 STAGE VARIABLE SPEED AND CARRIER PERFORMANCE 15 SEER
    Carrier 24ACB760A003 -Performance Series
    -Air Conditioner
    -Two Stage
    -Sound level as low as 72 dBA


    Carrier CNPVP6124ALA -Evaporator Coil


    Carrier 58CTW135122 -Performance Series
    -Gas Furnace
    -Two Stage


    AHRI Matchup:
    AHRI # : 9119529
    Cooling Capacity : 57000
    SEER : 16
    EER : 12.5


    CARRIER PERFORMANCE 80% 2 STAGE VARIABLE SPEED AND CARRIER PERFORMANCE 16 SEER 2 STAGE


    Carrier 24ACC660A003 -Performance Series
    -Air Conditioner
    -Single Stage


    Carrier CNPVP6024ALA -Evaporator Coil


    Carrier 58CTW135122 -Performance Series
    -Gas Furnace
    -Two Stage

    AHRI Matchup:
    AHRI # : 202474774
    Cooling Capacity : 54000
    SEER : 15
    EER : 12.5


    CARRIER PERFORMANCE 80% 2 STAGE VARIABLE SPEED AND CARRIER PERFORMANCE 15 SEER

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter911 View Post
    Natural gas is supercheap, the pay back from 80 - 95 is about the expected life of the unit. I’m more concerned with electrical use as that’s what is expensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    A 95% or higher efficient VS blower furnace would also use less electric.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  8. #8
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    Apr 2016
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    A 95% or higher efficient VS blower furnace would also use less electric.
    Interesting would you explain? My understanding is motor efficiency is a function of speed at which the motor operates, the external static pressure difference across the blower, and the airflow through the blower, not the combustion efficiency.

    So my reasoning was my ducts are basically staying the same so least to most efficient electrical use.

    Single Speed Blower
    Two Stage (fan runs all the time)
    Two Stage ( fan runs only with call for heat/cool)



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  9. #9
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    Jan 2004
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    PA
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    A 120,000 BTU input 95% furnace would have shorter run times then a 135,000 BTU input 80% furnace.

    For every 100 hours of run time the 80% would have, the 95% would run 6.6 hours less. So if the 80% would run for 1000 hours in a winter, the 95% would only run 934 hours.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    Thread Starter
    So just had 4th and final contractor come over to provide a quote and it was a much different experience...

    First he asks about who lives in the house, hours people are typically home, concerns with comfort and in what areas/rooms. Next he asked for a full tour of the house. Each room he measured LxWxH, windows, supplies/returns, checked in the attic for insulation levels, etc. Took all the numbers and info he acquired, sat down, and started to fill out a what looked like a lengthy form and finally produced a load calculation.

    Furnace size came in under the size all other contractors quoted... Three previous companies quoted 135k furnace, his calculations showed depending on the type installed a 100k - 120k furnace. The previous quotes were for 5 ton AC unit and his load calculation showed a 3.5 or 4 ton. What a different experience and level of detail compared to the others.

    He quoted several options, all fairly close in price, but I'm most interested in this 80%, 16 seer 4-ton both 2 stage.

    AC: Amana ASXC160481
    Coil: CAPF4860C6
    Furnace: AMVC81005CX

    * Increased efficiency
    * Two-stage UltraTech scroll compressor
    * Two-speed condenser fan motor
    * High-density compressor sound blanket
    * ComfortNet Communications System
    * High & low pressure controls
    * Limited lifetime A/C replacement warranty
    * 10 year parts warranty
    * Standard 80% level of heating efficiency
    * Two-stage gas valve
    * Maximum Efficiency Variable-speed motor
    * Limited lifetime furnace replacement

    He stated that this furnace could be sized at 100k while I would need a 120k for a 1 stage or their basic 2 stage. Don't really understand this part and would like thoughts input.

    Any other questions I should ask, things I should make sure I get on paper, etc?

    I like the contractor, he was very through, and they have excellent overall reviews...

    Any concerns with Amana everything else I looked at was Carrier or Armstrong.

    Thanks, ready to make a decission just like some added pro input.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
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    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...5e2wVDcijS4P/k

    Here's your AHRI certified reference number to prove they are installing a match system. Gives 15 SEER 12.5 EER with that combo. So if in your mind your thinking of getting and paying for a true 16 SEER ( on paper ) your close but not 16 SEER. Manufacturers say " up to a certain SEER "

    Need to install the field install TXV metering device as that coil comes with a Flowrater piston metering device, to get those SEER and EER numbers, so make sure they install a OEM Goodman/Amana TXV. Did they tell you they where going to do that?

    Tell them, give me a great price on the extended 10 year Asure Care labor warranty and I'll pull the trigger, ( if that interests you getting a extended labor warranty, ) comes in a 5 year labor warranty also. Backed by Amana not a 3rd party company like the majority of other manufacturers.

    All those great warranties only apply if system is registered and to the original owner.
    If not register your manufacturer warranty reverts to a base warranty, probably 20 year HX and 5 years parts and compressor. No new OD or Furnace IMO.

    Chances are nothing they offered would apply for any rebate except possibly the variable speed blower motor, if that interest you. Typically for A/C units it would need to be 16 SEER minimum and a certain minimum EER and 95%> for furnaces, and energy star rated but you can check

    One source: http://www.dsireusa.org/
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 02-14-2019 at 12:06 AM.

  12. #12
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    Jan 2004
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    Whether a single stage or 2 stage, 100,000 BTU input 80%, is the same heat output.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter911 View Post
    Natural gas is supercheap, the pay back from 80 - 95 is about the expected life of the unit. I’m more concerned with electrical use as that’s what is expensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    But is it going to stay SuperCheap over the next 15 - 20 years?

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