Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 14 to 19 of 19
  1. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    Whose system are you currently selling? You been doing it for 24 years, the oldest setup I seen was A Baileys ICCS, was around 25 years old. I'm always upfront with clients and let them know that there isn't any payback in most cases.
    I don’t sell anything myself, I’m a Field Supervisor.

    I have installed and commissioned Fireye Nexus/Honeywell FARC(CB Branded version)/Preferred Burnermate/Siemens LMV.

    I’m not sure what the conditions are surrounding your clients and equipment, but ROI is achieved on the vast majority of our PP & Trim upgrade projects.

    I get more heartburn from other contractors making crazy high savings forecasts with “their” system. What I stated above are real numbers, numbers I have seen for myself. Having said that, truly improving energy efficiency requires a global approach. That is, we can’t focus only on the burner/boiler. I spend a lot of time helping clients understand their total energy envelope better. Only then can I help them realize all of the different aspects to saving energy in the boiler plant. Even then, the 3-5% are very attainable numbers when all aspects of the plan are explained and executed correctly.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    up in the hizzy
    Posts
    3,152
    Post Likes
    We are not allow to talk numbers here...lets say that a parallel positioning retrofit may cost as much as the small boiler, I can see a long term payback on a large 1000+hp machine or if FGR is mandated having individual servos makes it easy to dial it in, at the end if a burner cant be tuned to 3&8 with the linkages adding bells and whistles wont help a poorly designed burner.
    There is not better place for the working men than the union! 100% UA the only HVAC union!

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    We are not allow to talk numbers here...lets say that a parallel positioning retrofit may cost as much as the small boiler, I can see a long term payback on a large 1000+hp machine or if FGR is mandated having individual servos makes it easy to dial it in, at the end if a burner cant be tuned to 3&8 with the linkages adding bells and whistles wont help a poorly designed burner.
    Well it’s tough to clarify your assumptions if we can’t talk numbers.

    I save clients with ~10MMBTU units significant dollars. PP & Trim capable systems are expensive upgrades, I’m not denying that. But ROI is very favorable when they employ these systems, in concert with better operational decisions. I wouldn’t have helped move half the systems in the last 15 years if I wasn’t able to help my clients realize 18-30 month ROI.

    No BS, I’ve done it many many times. Some sites do one unit, see the savings, and immediately do more/the rest. This wouldn’t happen (ever) if they didn’t see the savings.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    up in the hizzy
    Posts
    3,152
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by BigNuge View Post
    Well it’s tough to clarify your assumptions if we can’t talk numbers.

    I save clients with ~10MMBTU units significant dollars. PP & Trim capable systems are expensive upgrades, I’m not denying that. But ROI is very favorable when they employ these systems, in concert with better operational decisions. I wouldn’t have helped move half the systems in the last 15 years if I wasn’t able to help my clients realize 18-30 month ROI.

    No BS, I’ve done it many many times. Some sites do one unit, see the savings, and immediately do more/the rest. This wouldn’t happen (ever) if they didn’t see the savings.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Guess the savings would be cause the combustion curb would be saved and deviations trimmed back but I can do the same thing with a $100 bucks cam setup and yearly tuning. the combustion efficiency of a burner alone its limited by its design no gadget can overcome a bad design and make it more efficient, a reduction of 15% excess air equals about 1% increase in combustion efficiency, if a linkage system is tuned and combusting at 3&8 that burner is near its peak efficiency and cant be improve much more regardless, a condensing economizer would be cheaper and add more to the overall efficiency.
    There is not better place for the working men than the union! 100% UA the only HVAC union!

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    Guess the savings would be cause the combustion curb would be saved and deviations trimmed back but I can do the same thing with a $100 bucks cam setup and yearly tuning. the combustion efficiency of a burner alone its limited by its design no gadget can overcome a bad design and make it more efficient, a reduction of 15% excess air equals about 1% increase in combustion efficiency, if a linkage system is tuned and combusting at 3&8 that burner is near its peak efficiency and cant be improve much more regardless, a condensing economizer would be cheaper and add more to the overall efficiency.
    If this were true then these systems wouldn’t exist at all. A lot of assuming going on. Savings come with consistency and relatability, combined with the ability to correct combustion constantly. Cams and linkages are in the stone age, and have been for a long time. If a $100 part attained the same performance then NO linkageless system would exist.

    I’ve turned my share of cams too, cut my teeth on bags of 1/8” allen wrenches and easy outs. Linkage hysteresis, bushings, fuel stems & bushings, cam rollers, springs, followers, set screws.....all antiquated junk.

    No matter what, a $100 part (and cams are a whole lot more than $100) is not capable of the type of performance and repeatability that these new systems can achieve. With a plant consuming 10,000 CFH (or more) of gas WILL see favorable ROI with things set up properly. I’m working at a site now (over the last few months) that consistently does 50-70k CFH in NG. 3-5% is a significant savings in a plant like that, and nobody is going to get them those savings with a sloppy old cam and linkage.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    up in the hizzy
    Posts
    3,152
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by BigNuge View Post
    If this were true then these systems wouldn’t exist at all. A lot of assuming going on. Savings come with consistency and relatability, combined with the ability to correct combustion constantly. Cams and linkages are in the stone age, and have been for a long time. If a $100 part attained the same performance then NO linkageless system would exist.

    I’ve turned my share of cams too, cut my teeth on bags of 1/8” allen wrenches and easy outs. Linkage hysteresis, bushings, fuel stems & bushings, cam rollers, springs, followers, set screws.....all antiquated junk.

    No matter what, a $100 part (and cams are a whole lot more than $100) is not capable of the type of performance and repeatability that these new systems can achieve. With a plant consuming 10,000 CFH (or more) of gas WILL see favorable ROI with things set up properly. I’m working at a site now (over the last few months) that consistently does 50-70k CFH in NG. 3-5% is a significant savings in a plant like that, and nobody is going to get them those savings with a sloppy old cam and linkage.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    There is a place for parallel positioning systems, I'm not saying they don't work, my argument is against the so called "return of investment" BS that in most cases never materializes.
    There is not better place for the working men than the union! 100% UA the only HVAC union!

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor MagazineThe place where Electrical professionals meet.