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  1. #79
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    You are wrong hvacker I made no attempt to qualify Trump. My point was liberals in droves dodged the draft and if Trump dodged it why should liberals be upset? I didn't say no libs fought but the question is if the decision to fight or not to fight is up to and made by the individual what happens if we are faced with a massive attack and half the population decides not to fight? As distasteful as combat is it can't be done that way.
    Look what happened to the French in WWII and why. Their military in some ways was better than the Germans but they didn't wish to fight and for the most part didn't. There are many documentaries on that.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
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  2. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    That's not true Wayne. You should know that because you know the time. So what did you do during the war? Vietnam wasn't fought by conservatives. It was fought by everybody. And the question of the day was "Do I want to die for nothing?" Stupidity.
    You shouldn't condemn for not wanting to die for nothing.

    Which was a matter of perspective, not the "truth" in a nutshell you present it as. I'd be willing to bet that there were less "Liberals" in Vietnam than those of other political persuasions, since huge numbers of the Left (including & aka 'hippies' in those days) were in American streets, participating in a massive campaign of protests, draft dodger 'tunnels' to Canada, etc. (the Left hasn't changed their tactics much since those days...violence, burning flags, hating America, assaulting those in disagreement, even the returning soldiers). But I can't say for sure, since I have no documentation. Do you?

    You qualify Trump no matter what. Cognitive dissonance. And I'm not even a shrink.
    Can it not be said that you disqualify Trump "no matter what"? Certainly that can be said for the Left as a whole.

  3. #81
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    Please allow me to qualify several wrongs here on this thread. Draft dodgers were those (mostly hippies and leftists) who either refused to register for the draft or when called to serve either fled the country (Canada, Sweden, etc.) or hid out in America avoiding getting caught.

    Trump was not a draft dodger. He had a legal deferment and they could be: student deferment, essential civilian occupation, homosexual, conscientious objector, hardship like married with kids or physically or mentally unfit. Someone who was deferred legally is not a draft dodger and I hold nothing against them nor to I expect everyone should want to go.

    Those who were "draft dodgers" should have spent some time in prison IMHO (Ford gave them fines and a few months in prison while Jimmy Carter gave them pardons).

    Now a lot more conservatives served than liberals simply because liberals didn't volunteer like conservatives did nor did they flee to Canada or hide out like the hippies did.

    I volunteered for service and Nam and I have always been a conservative if not right wing. I repeat Trump is no draft dodger as he had a four year deferment for college then when he reported for his physical he had bad feet and got a 1-Y deferment.

    Just wanted to clear the air here. I knew one soldier in basic from Tennessee who lied about a big scar on his back just saying he was cut and not from major surgery on his back. So there were those who would do whatever it took to join up and go to Nam. Thank you, thank you very much
    Last edited by glennac; 01-22-2019 at 02:31 PM.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."

    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Sen. Barry Goldwater

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  5. #82
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    Some facts about the Vietnam War. I know this will be a big surprise to most of you. Most were volunteers like myself. Thank you, thank you very much

    https://www.google.com/search?source...60.Kp8Fn-nNrMI

    25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.) Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam. 88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."

    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Sen. Barry Goldwater

  6. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Please allow me to qualify several wrongs here on this thread. Draft dodgers were those (mostly hippies and leftists) who either refused to register for the draft or when called to serve either fled the country (Canada, Sweden, etc.) or hid out in America avoiding getting caught.

    Trump was not a draft dodger. He had a legal deferment and they could be: student deferment, essential civilian occupation, homosexual, conscientious objector, hardship like married with kids or physically or mentally unfit. Someone who was deferred legally is not a draft dodger and I hold nothing against them nor to I expect everyone should want to go.

    Those who were "draft dodgers" should have spent some time in prison IMHO (Ford gave them fines and a few months in prison while Jimmy Carter gave them pardons).

    Now a lot more conservatives served than liberals simply because liberals didn't volunteer like conservatives did nor did they flee to Canada or hide out like the hippies did.

    I volunteered for service and Nam and I have always been a conservative if not right wing. I repeat Trump is no draft dodger as he had a four year deferment for college then when he reported for his physical he had bad feet and got a 1-Y deferment.

    Just wanted to clear the air here. I knew one soldier in basic from Tennessee who lied about a big scar on his back just saying he was cut and not from major surgery on his back. So there were those who would do whatever it took to join up and go to Nam. Thank you, thank you very much
    Thank you for being a voice of reason. Especially among our mentally and emotionally handicapped members here.
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  7. #84
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    . If Trump makes statements about the"russian thing" to gulianni and giulianni admits to the world that trump told him so. Why cant Mueller bring Giulianni to testify about the admission Trump made to him?I believe attorney/client priviledge has been waived by the G by admitting it in public and trumps not disputing it!

  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    You are wrong hvacker I made no attempt to qualify Trump. My point was liberals in droves dodged the draft and if Trump dodged it why should liberals be upset? I didn't say no libs fought but the question is if the decision to fight or not to fight is up to and made by the individual what happens if we are faced with a massive attack and half the population decides not to fight? As distasteful as combat is it can't be done that way.
    Look what happened to the French in WWII and why. Their military in some ways was better than the Germans but they didn't wish to fight and for the most part didn't. There are many documentaries on that.

    Of those I knew and those that served with me, most hadn't been alive long enough to actually have a philosophical position left or right. I can't remember any political discussions while I was serving. Go figure? Opposing the war was for some a socially popular position.
    I knew a Brit that was involved in the Ban The Bomb movement. He told me it was because of the chicks. At that age testosterone is the engine that drives guys, not politics.
    The Generals lied to the politicians and the politicians lied to the people. It was only a matter of time until Americans stopped supporting the war.

    I only knew one guy that was drafted and packing to go to Canada but changed his mind and went to the Army. He got good duty in Germany. The decision to fight or not has always been up to the individual. That decision can have a harsh result. Once the reality of how we were sucked into that war it would be hard to point a finger if someone elected to split.
    There was a saying back then "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" A friend said, when he heard this, that's the most crazy thing he ever heard. He also didn't serve. But at the time to resist the government was almost unheard of. The hope at the time was find a way to survive.
    One in 10 was a casualty. 58148 Killed. 304000 wounded. For a political war where our homeland wasn't threatened.
    There are conditions and situations where to resist the government is patriotic. What if the German people had.
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  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilp172 View Post
    . If Trump makes statements about the"russian thing" to gulianni and giulianni admits to the world that trump told him so. Why cant Mueller bring Giulianni to testify about the admission Trump made to him?I believe attorney/client priviledge has been waived by the G by admitting it in public and trumps not disputing it!


    In court it's called "Hear say evidence" and not allowed. There are ways around it. instead of saying "He told me this or that" you can say "It's my understanding that this or that."
    Hear say id different from a witness seeing something or direct testimony.
    I don't know why Giuliani said what he did. Seems clumsy or on purpose.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

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  10. #87
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    hvacker,
    We are not diametrically opposite on this subject. My biggest problem with Nam is the people that opposed it should have found a better way. Many times they encouraged our enemies and that is wrong. Many of them publicly abused our troops and that is wrong. The war was ended politically by the election of Nixon and his "peace with honor" that was another lie.
    I was not in favor of sending troops over there because in my opinion we were essentially picking up a cause the French started and they were defeated. They didn't just leave they got their ass kicked. Once committed we should have identified what winning was and done it and left politics out of the mix and we could have.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    hvacker,
    We are not diametrically opposite on this subject. My biggest problem with Nam is the people that opposed it should have found a better way. Many times they encouraged our enemies and that is wrong. Many of them publicly abused our troops and that is wrong. The war was ended politically by the election of Nixon and his "peace with honor" that was another lie.
    I was not in favor of sending troops over there because in my opinion we were essentially picking up a cause the French started and they were defeated. They didn't just leave they got their ass kicked. Once committed we should have identified what winning was and done it and left politics out of the mix and we could have.

    I might have written this befor but I was in a SAC Alert bunker. We had a small library and in it was a book by Mao tse tung on Gorilla Warfare. After reading it I felt we were screwed. He explained that a force can never win w/o the support of the people. Seems simple but it was 10 years of involvement before we would the Generals saying "We have to win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people" I wish they had read that book.
    The Generals wrongly thought they were fighting WW2 again.

    I remember though that it was a very small minority of people that treated the troupes wrong. I used to hitch hike home in uniform when here and always got a ride and never got any problems.
    All wars are political by nature and it's been said that war is too important to be left to the Generals. In Vietnam the Generals just dug us deeper by not understanding the enemy or how to fight a gorilla war. Later even many buck privates lost faith in the leaders and the people at home didn't want any more of their kids sent home in a box.
    There are wrong wars. When I was active duty I never thought of anything more than to do what I was told. That's the training.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

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  12. #89
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    Thread Starter
    Didn't I hear something yesterday about how Cohen keeps finding reasons not to testify? The latest being his personal security. Maybe even something regarding the 'government shutdown' not being able to protect him (?).

    Probably better for MSM if he does not testify, that way they can keep on making up more hypothesis and fake news.
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

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