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  1. #14
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    Thank you for a way forward...

    Your welcome. I am truly sorry, and perplexed, that this thread took the turn it did.

    I singled out the combustion air and exhaust venting as a positive due to not seeing primer and glue running down the pipe, plus you used proper hangers not all round strapping. Which is sadly more typical. It was a good example of you doing a thoughtful install. Overall it is of quality.

    Peace.

  2. #15
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    I am kinda blessed in the 'install crew' area... I have a guy who has his own insurance... who I can get on a 'by the day' basis... have to give him a few days notice ahead though...

    Generally, I can go to the job, start him off, then come back 3-4 hours later with lunch.
    He will have the boxes changed and be buttoning up the details.
    I will generally do the electrical and low voltage, check the vacuum and do the startup.

    I 'can' leave him there to finish...
    And go by to do the fine tuning after they start it up...
    However like to get it done the same day.

    On the louvers of the outdoor units... as far as I know... no.
    There was talk of it... however until the mess with the Lennox Marshalltown factory is cleaned up (probably this Spring)... I doubt any changes will happen.

    Just FYI: condensing VS furnaces in the AlliedAir lines (Ducane, Concord, AirEase, ArmstrongAir) are hard to get... they are low on the scale of priorities at the Lennox plant.
    Thankfully, I have a couple of 70K 96% VS boxes in my storage... I think one is sold. The MOD furnaces are simply not available for now. We are too far south to have much demand for condensing furnaces.

    The big thing with AlliedAir for now... is the all aluminum evap coils are startign to arrive... which means I can sell them as 'better than copper coils'... in they are less leak prone.

    Thankfully... I have not had much demand to take apart the covers on an outdoor unit... generally I wash them with a coil gun with the covers on. Yeah, it takes some expertise to get ALL the dirt... however it sure beats taking it apart and fighting to get it all back together...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  3. #16
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    installing is a unique skill set in itself, I like doing them, more of a 9 to 5 and less stressful than service work, and if installed properly, with a good brand, virtually problem free, you do have to be geared towards installs however .... not sure if I could have survived geared primarily for installs, the economy was hit pretty hard here in Cleveland over the last 8 or so years, and it is hard to try and mix installs with service once the service side grows, if I could chose between one or the other I would probably gear more towards installs ..... maybe President Trump will turn things around enough for that to happen here .... what do you do more of service or installs ?

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    Thank you for a way forward...

    Your welcome. I am truly sorry, and perplexed, that this thread took the turn it did.

    I singled out the combustion air and exhaust venting as a positive due to not seeing primer and glue running down the pipe, plus you used proper hangers not all round strapping. Which is sadly more typical. It was a good example of you doing a thoughtful install. Overall it is of quality.

    Peace.
    yeah .. guess you have to walk that fine line when it comes to being critical of somebody's work when they take a lot of pride in it ...... apologize if there was a misunderstanding ..... being able to take constructive criticism only makes you better

    it's all good .... : )

  5. #18
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post
    Thank you for a way forward...

    Your welcome. I am truly sorry, and perplexed, that this thread took the turn it did.

    I singled out the combustion air and exhaust venting as a positive due to not seeing primer and glue running down the pipe, plus you used proper hangers not all round strapping. Which is sadly more typical. It was a good example of you doing a thoughtful install. Overall it is of quality.

    Peace.
    what do you suppose the reasoning is for wanting a vent on the other side of the trap anyhow ? I could understand venting a drain pipe in your house to prevent a vacuum, but that is because the entire drain pipe could become full of water and create a vacuum, but in a 3 / 4 " PVC condensate drain for an AC unit or furnace imagine the pipe would only have a small amount of condensate running through it at any one time ...

    a spin off from normal plumbing practices, or maybe there is a very slight negative pressure being created by the water running in one direction and having the pipe vented allows for better water flow ?
    Last edited by hvacskills; 01-21-2019 at 02:33 AM.

  6. #19
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    --- Does it work and is it right aren't the same thing. Let me foreword this by saying, I'm no stranger to deviating from best practice. If I need to make something work, I'll make it work. See my recent post in Wall of Shame for example. But should I is a different conversation. ---

    My approach to venting stems from spending considerable time working with my plumber brother. 3/4", 2", 6"... I treat drainage all the same. I do think venting is best practice.

    Also, unless there is a site specific physical restraint requiring me to, I just follow the manufacturer instructions. I'd rather not give a competitor reason to ridicule my install to a customer. Eg. Say there is furnace pressure switch issue and the manual says do it this way to prevent a pressure switch issue... what's the tech going to say to customer? CYA.

    From a manufacturer point of view, I'd imagine every scenario needs to be covered. Maybe a majority of time not having a vent is not a problem. But it only takes one time for it to come back on them. So, venting it is.

    In the unlikely event drain pipe outlet becomes blocked, the furnace will spill water out of the black factory trap vent outlet. If the vent had been extended up beyond the furnace outlet, you may get a blocked flue pressure switch fault (I think that's right??), indicating there is a problem that needs rectifying. Since tied together, water is coming out of the furnace vent pipe during AC use if outlet blocked.

    I hope that makes sense

    As for the condensate pump overflow switch, once again I cover my a$$. I'd rather a lack of warmth/cooling to indicate furnace needs service rather than relying on customer to notice water on the floor. Concrete basement floors seem to be a magnet of people's belongings Bit of a worst case, do I want people to be uncomfortable for a day or risk water damage to family photo albums? I choose my liability over their comfort.

    Again, really neat install!! IMO, a tee, couple feet of pipe and control cable would make it better.
    Last edited by Lahrs; 01-21-2019 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Spelling

  7. #20
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    that was just a question in general, not specific towards the install

    ' what is the reason for having the pipe vented after the trap ? '


    as mentioned, I do not believe it is to prevent siphoning of the trap as may be the case in a house drain, not enough condensate for that to happen

    I do know that if a condensate pipe is inserted too far into a condensate pump that it can cause the condensate pipe to fill with condensate, thinking maybe a vent might prevent that from happening

    thinking maybe having the pipe vented after the trap probably allows for overall better drainage by relieving any tendency to develop negative pressure, especially on longer runs

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post

    Does it work and is it right aren't the same thing.

    As for the condensate pump overflow switch, once again I cover my a$$. I'd rather a lack of warmth/cooling to indicate furnace needs service rather than relying on customer to notice water on the floor. Concrete basement floors seem to be a magnet of people's belongings Bit of a worst case, do I want people to be uncomfortable for a day or risk water damage to family photo albums? I choose my liability over their comfort.

    Again, really neat install!! IMO, a tee, couple feet of pipe and control cable would make it better.
    condensate pumps come with or without an overflow switch, my guess is in some instances it may not be desirable to have an overflow switch wired in or they would not sell them without one, thinking that HVACR contractors are able to decide what is better for their particular installation

    you should always consult with the customer regarding decisions like that, could be possible that the customer recently had their basement flood and they do not have any valuables subjected to water damage if their basement were to flood again, as in this instance .... could also be that the customer may leave town for several days, in that instance a ' no heat ' could cause catastrophic water damage throughout the entire house if the furnace were to shut down due to pump failure and water pipes froze and burst

    in this particular instance I believe I am good with the condensate piping, condensate piping is too short and running and terminating vertically to be a concern, guessing there is not a ' does it work and is it right ' in this instance

    again, thank you for your advise and input, it was helpful in that it will make me pay closer attention to venting condensate drain piping in the future

  9. #22
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    I generally agree. I would add, a fluid filling a pipe initially causes a positive pressure. The negative is when it is emptying. A vent can flow in both directions, but this is more relevant for large volumes and/or long horizontal runs. I think?

    If tied together with no venting, I wonder how the blower air pressure could interact with furnace air switches?

  10. #23
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    👍

  11. #24
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    ... This convo has helped us both. Cheers.

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahrs View Post

    If tied together with no venting, I wonder how the blower air pressure could interact with furnace air switches?
    I would think the furnace trap should prevent any air from influencing the furnace pressure switches, plus the furnace trap is vented prior to entering the furnace trap ( going in reverse ) so any residual air coming from the evaporator coil ( it the evaporator trap was dry ), as small is it would be, should take the path of least resistance and go up the vent, not sure why the reference to pressure switches was in there ..... I actually am a stickler as far as following installation instructions, but as you mentioned sometimes you just roll your eyes and do what you feel is best from prior experience ... ran into that a few times especially with knock off brand equipment

  13. #26
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    Agree on all points. Beyond a furnace vent clog I see no way blower could affect air switches. I don't do alot of resi, hence why I asked your opinion. Thanks!

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