ReplyLooks good. Like to see the F100 and filter drier inside.
Banned
Concord 95 % furnace and 13 seer AC replacement over this last summer ..... I like Concord equipment ...
job was like 40 miles away so it took me a few weeks to get it done in between other work ..... customer was giving me hard time because it was taking so long, but I wheel barrowed dirt from across the back of the yard to elevate and level the condensing unit, even mixed coloring to the mason mix to try and blend in with the bricks where the flu pipes are .... and stuff just takes time ..... but when I was done she was really happy
customer insisted on having the faucet where it is, so I installed a new one for her, no harm I suppose, the old faucet did not work but there was no room to replace it because of where the AC unit was .... when I was done she then decides to plant a bunch of plants and flowers around the back of her house and around the AC unit now that she had an outdoor faucet at the back of her house ....
there is actually enough room to get in there and service the AC unit if need be, opposed to as before, plus there is now an outdoor disconnect .....
somehow I got into the habit of using 4 inch bricks, leveled with mason mix, to set the furnace on, it adds a day to the project because it has to set overnight, but it is a nice, solid, level, foundation to build upon .....
rarely use 90 s for my copper connections inside or out, I prefer to gradually bend the pipe
seldom do installs anymore, just can't afford to be tied up that long and just can't blast them in, so maybe one or two a year ..... not perfect, but for what it's worth it turned out OK .... seen worse
Last edited by hvacskills; 01-18-2019 at 02:01 AM.
Global Moderator
Looks good. Like to see the F100 and filter drier inside.
Banned
Originally Posted by BaldLoonie
thank you
Concord furnace and AC I installed for her friend, otherwise I would never have done an install so far away, this one turned out a little but nicer looking ... looks as if I installed the union inside the compartment however, and forgot to seal my extra coil drain openings ... guess I should correct that ........ maybe put a clamp on the evaporator drain PVC ... it's those odds and ends that kill you, that's why I try to do all those odds as I go along but you know how that is ....
definitely takes me longer to do an install, but I figure if it takes me a few extra hours to do something right, and to make it look nice, or to even re do something, what is that compared to the 15 or 20 years it is going to be installed with the customer looking at it nearly everyday ?
Professional Member
Your coil condensate line is S trapped. Needs a vent after the trap.
Secondly, your furnace trap vent needs to be extended above the upstream connection point. Also, manual says it shouldn't be tied into the coil condensate line. This would be less of an issue if a vent was at the top of the 'stack'. Second install is separated, but not vented correctly.
York, for example, allows the two condensate lines to be tied together. With correct venting. I only reviewed the Concord 95G1 manual, maybe the manual you have for the furnace says all is ok?
Additionally, condensate pump safety switch doesn't look tied into furnace controls. I'd personally cut R since it is for AC and furnace. Warn customer if pump fails they have no heat.
Sorry. The combustion air and exhaust venting is neatly done.
Banned
that is a ' P ' trap, not an ' S ' trap, the condensate drain pipe is running and terminating vertically 24 " below, so venting that pipe will not be a concern, it would be a concern if the condensate piping was running horizontally, which it is not .... IE, a vacuum will not be created in the piping
the condensate drain pipe is running and terminating vertically 12 " below, so this will not be a concern, it would be a concern if the condensate piping was running horizontally, which it is not .... IE, extra pressure will not be needed on the condensate drain piping as might be needed if the drain pipe was running horizontally
the drain pipe is venting and terminating vertically 12 " below, so this will not be a concern, it would be a concern if the condensate piping was running horizontally, which it is not .... IE, unless the vertical piping becomes blocked, which it will not, condensate will not back up into the furnace, which is the reason for them to be separated
all is OK ... guess us Americans are able to figure out why things are supposed to be the way that they are .....
personally I think it would be stupid to tie in the safety switch on a furnace and AC installation in a basement with a concrete floor leaving the customer with no heat or AC .... customer was advised what will happen if pump fails
no need to apologize, you obviously spent a bit of time doing the research to find reasons to be critical of the work
as is the duct work, as is the electrical, as is everything else ... normally, when I find myself wanting to give constructive criticism, I start out with the compliment .. but then that was not intended to be constructive criticism was it ?The combustion air and exhaust venting is neatly done.
Professional Member
Lol. Ok. I guess the manual is lying then.
It looked wrong, so I spent 3 minutes reviewing the manual. It confirmed it was wrong. I always do my due diligence before posting on here, I really try to only post correct information, as I have done here.
I was legitimately trying to be helpful!!! Constructive criticism. Sorry I hurt your feelings. My intentions were nothing but noble.
Banned
first off, let me say, as a professional the installation instructions should always be followed, having said that ......
' wrong ' ? I believe it may be ' wrong ' if the condensate drain piping was installed differently ...... for example, traveled vertically down the length of the furnace, then traveled horizontally some distance where restriction may develop ( sludge, dirt, debris, not properly pitched ) in the condensate piping where extra force would be need to be created to clear the piping or a vacuum could be created then needed to be broke .... in both of these instances the water will drip beautifully down and out of each of the condensate drain piping
in this particular instance, with the condensate drain piping running and terminating vertically 12 " and 24 ", I will argue this is not ' wrong ' ..... if you feel that it is ' wrong ' then state exactly why the condensate will not drain properly from either the evaporator coil or the furnace, be sure to use your ' due diligence ' and back up your assertions with logic
hurt feelings ? the irony here is spectacularly beautiful
' freedom of speech ' = ' freedom of thought '
the condensate drain piping ? common sense ......
Last edited by hvacskills; 01-20-2019 at 12:13 PM.
Professional Member
I am bewildered as to why you have responded negatively. I wish to only positively contribute to this website. I see no way forward with you.
Good day sir.
Banned
in the spirit of positiveness .....
understanding ' why ' is the difference between an average HVACR technician and a good HVACR technician
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ben-180963048/
And though the baron was appalled at the condition of the army he was tasked with making over, he soon developed an appreciation for its soldiers. “The genius of this nation is not in the least to be compared with that of the Prussian, Austrians, or French,” von Steuben wrote to a Prussian friend. “You say to your soldier ‘Do this and he doeth it’; but I am obliged to say [to the American soldier]: ‘This is the reason why you ought to do that: and then he does it.’”
Good day back at you !
Professional Member*
Those that know how... will always have a job...
However...
Those that know why... will usually be the bosses!
There is a larger life than following the letter of the law (instructions)...
It is called following the spirit of he law (intentions, which cause end results).
It takes someone that knows how to think... to work with the why's...
Anyone that can read... can follow instructions...
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
Professional Member*
Good looking installs... nice to see someone doing a quality job voluntarily!
We have been installing AlliedAir equipment for close to a decade now... with excellent results!
Please keep up the good work...
Suggestion... get a 'by install' helper... and have them do the heavy work.
You will get more done... and probably make some extra $$$.
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
Banned
thank you for the advise, do not believe there will be an issue in this particular instance but nice to know for future reference
Banned
thank you .... really like these furnaces and have very good results also
do you know if they redesigned the condensing units so the louvers are easier to remove to gain access to clean the coil ? that is one knock I have about these condensing units, unscrewing the louvers isn't too bad but not too much fun crawling around in mud trying to screw the louvers back on, I heard from a factory representative they were supposed to redesign the louvers for that very reason but I do not recall if this one I installed this last summer was
I used to have ' by install ' helpers, but service work has picked up so much I have had to almost completely drop doing installs, just can't be tied up for that long anymore and keep getting pulled away from the install, and it is hard to find ' seldom by install ' help, service work is mostly one person and by the time you add workers compensation and unemployment just don't add up ( liberals ruin everything ) ...... but yeah, I used to have helpers all the time, and we all had a good time and installed an lot of equipment and did a lot of good work and they always had money in their pocket, I paid them well hourly and liked giving them bonuses when we had a good day, treated them to lunch, dinner .... miss those days
Professional Member
Thank you for a way forward...
Your welcome. I am truly sorry, and perplexed, that this thread took the turn it did.
I singled out the combustion air and exhaust venting as a positive due to not seeing primer and glue running down the pipe, plus you used proper hangers not all round strapping. Which is sadly more typical. It was a good example of you doing a thoughtful install. Overall it is of quality.
Peace.
Professional Member*
I am kinda blessed in the 'install crew' area... I have a guy who has his own insurance... who I can get on a 'by the day' basis... have to give him a few days notice ahead though...
Generally, I can go to the job, start him off, then come back 3-4 hours later with lunch.
He will have the boxes changed and be buttoning up the details.
I will generally do the electrical and low voltage, check the vacuum and do the startup.
I 'can' leave him there to finish...
And go by to do the fine tuning after they start it up...
However like to get it done the same day.
On the louvers of the outdoor units... as far as I know... no.
There was talk of it... however until the mess with the Lennox Marshalltown factory is cleaned up (probably this Spring)... I doubt any changes will happen.
Just FYI: condensing VS furnaces in the AlliedAir lines (Ducane, Concord, AirEase, ArmstrongAir) are hard to get... they are low on the scale of priorities at the Lennox plant.
Thankfully, I have a couple of 70K 96% VS boxes in my storage... I think one is sold. The MOD furnaces are simply not available for now. We are too far south to have much demand for condensing furnaces.
The big thing with AlliedAir for now... is the all aluminum evap coils are startign to arrive... which means I can sell them as 'better than copper coils'... in they are less leak prone.
Thankfully... I have not had much demand to take apart the covers on an outdoor unit... generally I wash them with a coil gun with the covers on. Yeah, it takes some expertise to get ALL the dirt... however it sure beats taking it apart and fighting to get it all back together...
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
Banned
installing is a unique skill set in itself, I like doing them, more of a 9 to 5 and less stressful than service work, and if installed properly, with a good brand, virtually problem free, you do have to be geared towards installs however .... not sure if I could have survived geared primarily for installs, the economy was hit pretty hard here in Cleveland over the last 8 or so years, and it is hard to try and mix installs with service once the service side grows, if I could chose between one or the other I would probably gear more towards installs ..... maybe President Trump will turn things around enough for that to happen here .... what do you do more of service or installs ?
Banned
yeah .. guess you have to walk that fine line when it comes to being critical of somebody's work when they take a lot of pride in it ...... apologize if there was a misunderstanding ..... being able to take constructive criticism only makes you better
it's all good .... : )
Banned
what do you suppose the reasoning is for wanting a vent on the other side of the trap anyhow ? I could understand venting a drain pipe in your house to prevent a vacuum, but that is because the entire drain pipe could become full of water and create a vacuum, but in a 3 / 4 " PVC condensate drain for an AC unit or furnace imagine the pipe would only have a small amount of condensate running through it at any one time ...
a spin off from normal plumbing practices, or maybe there is a very slight negative pressure being created by the water running in one direction and having the pipe vented allows for better water flow ?
Last edited by hvacskills; 01-21-2019 at 01:33 AM.
Professional Member
--- Does it work and is it right aren't the same thing. Let me foreword this by saying, I'm no stranger to deviating from best practice. If I need to make something work, I'll make it work. See my recent post in Wall of Shame for example. But should I is a different conversation. ---
My approach to venting stems from spending considerable time working with my plumber brother. 3/4", 2", 6"... I treat drainage all the same. I do think venting is best practice.
Also, unless there is a site specific physical restraint requiring me to, I just follow the manufacturer instructions. I'd rather not give a competitor reason to ridicule my install to a customer. Eg. Say there is furnace pressure switch issue and the manual says do it this way to prevent a pressure switch issue... what's the tech going to say to customer? CYA.
From a manufacturer point of view, I'd imagine every scenario needs to be covered. Maybe a majority of time not having a vent is not a problem. But it only takes one time for it to come back on them. So, venting it is.
In the unlikely event drain pipe outlet becomes blocked, the furnace will spill water out of the black factory trap vent outlet. If the vent had been extended up beyond the furnace outlet, you may get a blocked flue pressure switch fault (I think that's right??), indicating there is a problem that needs rectifying. Since tied together, water is coming out of the furnace vent pipe during AC use if outlet blocked.
I hope that makes sense
As for the condensate pump overflow switch, once again I cover my a$$. I'd rather a lack of warmth/cooling to indicate furnace needs service rather than relying on customer to notice water on the floor. Concrete basement floors seem to be a magnet of people's belongings
Again, really neat install!! IMO, a tee, couple feet of pipe and control cable would make it better.
Last edited by Lahrs; 01-21-2019 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Spelling
Banned
that was just a question in general, not specific towards the install
' what is the reason for having the pipe vented after the trap ? '
as mentioned, I do not believe it is to prevent siphoning of the trap as may be the case in a house drain, not enough condensate for that to happen
I do know that if a condensate pipe is inserted too far into a condensate pump that it can cause the condensate pipe to fill with condensate, thinking maybe a vent might prevent that from happening
thinking maybe having the pipe vented after the trap probably allows for overall better drainage by relieving any tendency to develop negative pressure, especially on longer runs
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