ReplyA friend if mine sent me pics of pdm linesets he installed 2yrs ago. Pinhole leaks.
'The more you know, the more you realize you don't know'
Professional Member*
I don't doubt you're having this issue. Probably the same makers of Chinese drywall are making those Chinese linesets, and selling them through a US distributor, calling them "assembled in the US". So, they put the Chinese covering on the Chinese copper.
I've always insulated my own linesets after routing the bare copper.
Problem with most bare copper is it's oval, not round. Even US mfg's can't get shit right anymore.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
Professional Member*
A friend if mine sent me pics of pdm linesets he installed 2yrs ago. Pinhole leaks.
'The more you know, the more you realize you don't know'
...
Regular Guest
Thanks for the pics. I have quite a few myself. Those are nasty looking and appear to be outside. I have them both outside and inside. The inside ones are not nearly as bad as those but still leak. I hope your friend doesn't have as much in service as I do. Tell him to submit a claim form.
New Guest
We have had 15-20 jobs come up with pin holes about 2-3 years after installation. We have been actively consulting manufactures for solutions and implemented all recommendations. After replacing the line sets with a different manufacture we're now having repeat pin hole leaking on the same type of job. It seems more common on projects where the line set may go vertical to horizontal back to vertical (such as running the line set through a basement to an outdoor unit on the opposite side of the home). Again, we have attempted all the manufactures recommendations including sealing all the ends with water proof, uv protected tape as suggested. We believe the white insulation (designed to make the line set easier to install with insulation not tearing) is ultimately the cause. We also believe the line set manufactures are not being completely honest with installers, in some cases, putting the blame on installers. It has been suggested that this issue be reported to the Consumer Product Safety Commission and to the EPA. I wouldn't want to take that extreme of an action without fellow installers speaking up with the same issues. Please speak up if you have as that is sometimes the only to improve our industry and maintain customer confidence.
Regular Guest
Is there any kind of consensus on what causes the problem? Is it with the type of insulation regardless of brand and not only sets produced in a specific time frame / area of the country?
I just learned this was even a thing when I saw guys sealing their linesets on instagram today.
New Guest
It seems the white insulation cover, designed to make it easier to pull the sets without tearing the insulation, traps moisture and has some type of chemical reaction, possibly formicary corrosion (See definition below).Originally Posted by derrickb
Formicary corrosion is caused by a chemical reaction requiring three parts: oxygen, water, and an organic acid. If any of the three parts are removed there can't be any further formicary corrosion. Formicary corrosion only occurs in copper based alloys and HVAC coils are often made of copper.
Professional Member*
Is this only "white insulation? I put in a line set this summer that was black but was the "rip stop" material so the ribs on the insulation are very similar to what shows on the pictures of the white insulation.
New Guest
That very well could be the same. I know it's new but we haven't yet used it. I'm approaching it all very cautiously as it's difficult to explain to the customer and most customers will have the reaction to blame the installer.
Professional Member
Could you email that warranty to me ? I have one I install last year with a 07/16 date code.
4 Head system with 70'run thru attic on one of them.
Thank you
Richard Labbe
Last edited by beenthere; 07-24-2019 at 04:21 PM.
R.C.Labbe Heating/Cooling
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
Sorry, email addresses are not permitted in post, please put it in your profile, thank you.
Regular Guest
Sorry everyone - I'm the guy that started this thread and have been AWOL for a couple of months. Not a lot of time for this sort of thing during a hot summer.
The warranty can be found on the manufacturer's website. Someone recently quoted my post of how it suddenly appeared there. It will be for the pipe only. I have had more leaks since my last post. This whole issue is similar to the Entran problem a few years ago. Yes we injured contractors need to band together and seek resolution. I have additional information I can share privately. I have quite a few posts on this site but am still considered a guest. I am not sure if I can post an email address in my profile until I someday get professional status. I came here out of necessity - having over 9,000' of this tubing in service and a pile of leakers. The help, support, and information here has been valuable. I appreciate the professionalism presented by just about everyone here.
New Guest
14. Legal Matters & Information Sniffers - NOT HERE
For those who come here to gather information dealing with lawsuits and/or to question our membership for such purposes; whether you feel you have been wronged by a contractor or other. This is not the place to bring your arguments, questions or conjectures. To all Lawyers, Sniffers or Consultants: Gather your information elsewhere. Posts dealing with lawsuits regardless of status will be removed from this site and your site membership along with it. No exceptions. This site and its members will not get involved with dabbling in your legal or illegal affairs.
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
cknepperHA
You are new here and maybe you didn't read the site rules. Please do so now and adhere to them.
Thanks
Admin
Professional Member
i am only aware of the mini split linesets come with the White insulation
Professional Member
Regular Guest
^^ They are available in various diameters and lenghts, just like regular copper lines. They are not like the cheap DIY mini-split linesets. The insulation is thicker and glued to the copper, not just slid over it.
We have been using pre-insulated lines for a few years now whe running through attics or in walls, no problem so far but time will tell...
New Guest
Hey guys just wanted to put my thoughts here, I represent a line set manufacturer who happens to have a product with the white insulation and have definitely seen this occur not just to our product but others as well. I think most contractors and distributors associate all white line sets as one product although there are many different manufacturers producing white insulation. The insulation itself is sourced from all different sources so i do not believe it is insulation causing these issues otherwise it would possibly be isolated to one manufacturer. From my experience this corrosion is what we call formicary corrosion or "ants nest" corrosion. This occurs when copper, oxygen, water and an organic acid are present together. Organic acids could be acetic acid which comes from adhesives, cleaning agents, particle board and more, and Formic acid which comes from disinfectants, plywood, latex paints and many others. When these components mix they start eating away at the copper. This is nothing new in our industry, coil manufacturers have been seeing this for years! google formicary corrosion in hvac. This issue seems to be found in areas with higher humidity conditions which makes the copper sweat more. We've recommended using line sets with higher insulation R value which unfortunately makes working with the line set more difficult. We've recommended using a vapor barrier which helps keep humidity from getting in contact with the cooler copper pipe. All of these recommendations are the same as what is in the energy codes anyway. With working with our manufacturer and contractors directly we have been able to develop a product that seems to help in preventing formicary corrosion. It's been a frustrating issue for all, if you are interested in some more info regarding our findings or possible solutions please feel free to reach out to me at any time! I don't like running away or denying issues. I was a tech for 20 years i like answers and solving problems so any way i can help this group i am more than willing. Be well
Professional Member
i dont use the copper with the white insulation because of all the corrosion issues associated with them...especially if going into a finished ceiling..they have to develop a better copper blend to last..
Professional Member*
Hi Rick
Thanks for the response.
While I agree that some chemicals can cause adverse reactions, I am not sure that this is the primary cause.
Copper itself is resistant to many chemicals. I have done a lot of grocery store work where I have seen a lot of sweating lineset and degraded insulation and only in one instance did we have pinhole leaks.
At one particular store we had to cut out and replace hundreds of feet of lineset that were over tens years old due to pinhole leaks in multiple locations under fully intact black Armaflex insulation. We could only attribute it to possible quality issues with the copper itself.
It seems over the last several years that the quality of a lot of the copper has declined especially with regards to rolls of soft ACR copper. Since copper has risen substantially in price, recycling of the metal has become more prevalent. I despise 1 1/8" soft copper because it is almost never round anymore.
How are the quality standards measured and maintained on the copper you use in your products?
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
New Guest
The quality of the copper was definitely a concern to us as well when these issues started popping up. As a representative we had concerns and sent many samples of good and bad pipe to an independent lab and actually found the copper better than the standards and even what our manufacturer states. I will share some interesting images when i get home from the lab. Some jobs are easier to understand than others but this new product has a barrier on the copper to protect it.
