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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    ...And to a certain point I do agree with that premise..that they're going to make parts more easily identified as bad and easily swappable, but you still have to have someone you can put in that truck.... you still have to have someone who is willing to stand on that roof in July or February, and you still have to have someone who has basic skills and knowledge and is willing to apply them to discover which parts need to be replaced.... and right now they don't have much of a plan in place to replace people like me, when I am gone from the ladder climbing in 10 years. I may be able to teach others, but I won't be able to convince an 18 year old that HVAC is a great trade to be in when he can make $80,000 writing code.
    That can't be quantified on a spreadsheet so it will be ignored until it can no longer be ignored.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

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  3. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    That can't be quantified on a spreadsheet so it will be ignored until it can no longer be ignored.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
    You would be shocked as to what can be captured in an accounting metric. I was....

  4. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    That can't be quantified on a spreadsheet so it will be ignored until it can no longer be ignored.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
    I think that horse has already left the barn.

    I can tell by what I see following up after techs from other companies.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I think that horse has already left the barn.

    I can tell by what I see following up after techs from other companies.
    Don't you worry; there's still just enough sand to cover their heads.... For now.

    I see and hear about plenty of ridiculous things, but the wheels keep turning. CEOs are still able to line their pockets - probably easier than ever.

    Labor ineptitude just gets factored into overhead/cost-of-doing-business and prices are adjusted accordingly. The public will not live without air conditioning. Being uncomfortable is now considered an emergency by most. The industry has them over a barrel.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    You would be shocked as to what can be captured in an accounting metric. I was....
    Oh I'm very aware of what can be measured - but that type of thing would be measured "indirectly" - and since a bean-counter can usually only create numbers from other numbers, they'll just accept the figure as a given and adjust other numbers accordingly (we can start using discounted parts from this supplier to offset the unproductive labor).

    It takes a skilled manager - no, that's wrong - a skilled LEADER (with good managerial abilities), which is a dying breed in itself, to take the numbers and translate them into actionable information where he can affect the numbers from their source in a meaningful way, rather than reactively from the computer screen.

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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    Oh I'm very aware of what can be measured - but that type of thing would be measured "indirectly" - and since a bean-counter can usually only create numbers from other numbers, they'll just accept the figure as a given and adjust other numbers accordingly (we can start using discounted parts from this supplier to offset the unproductive labor).

    It takes a skilled manager - no, that's wrong - a skilled LEADER (with good managerial abilities), which is a dying breed in itself, to take the numbers and translate them into actionable information where he can affect the numbers from their source in a meaningful way, rather than reactively from the computer screen.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
    The third party world uses its own metrics that preclude identifying and rewarding the better contractors, because doing so raises the cost of service, due to the scarcity of those contractors.

    The inept contractors are being rewarded by homeowners who are getting new system installs, because the tech that I just followed up on is working for a "residential and light commercial" contractor, and that kid just sold a $xx,xxx system for his company, and got a nice spiff along with the work.

    So, the bad tech's company is very happy with him.

    The service broker only cares that they can keep the contract and add their 10% to my invoice. In fact, if they lose the contract, they know that in 5 or 6 years, a new salesman at the broker will strike a deal with a new facility manager at the corporate of the now former retail customer, and they will be back making money for the broker.

    So, at the bottom, the companies still make money, but finding someone who is willing to leave their basement and go to work will get harder and harder to find.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  10. #46
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    I don't want to get into it but I so disagree with some points made here . not worth the battle so I will leave it alone. My question is for HVAV folks that are responsible for paying bills. What percentage is your overall payroll. That number would tell you more or less if you are in the same ballpark in getting people to work for you. does that number differ much when dealing in comm or res or industrial .

  11. #47
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    I can't speak for anyone else, but what I have shared is actual knowledge of business. If anyone differs with what I have said, I would ask them to articulate those differences.

    My research indicates that a company can only pay a top tech's net pay to be about 25% of the hourly billing rate. The result of the service broker reducing the hourly rate by nearly 50% in order to be sent out as a contractor for them is that a new hire tech is making somewhere in the range of a guy whose job requires that he asks, "would you like fries with that?"

    That dynamic has to be related to when I met a store manager a couple of years ago, when I was sent to his store on a service call. He told me that 19 companies had been sent to his store to fix a problem that had plagued a dog exercise room for the entire nine years he had managed that site, since the store was fitted out.

    It took me just long enough to unlock the hatch and walk over to the unit to find out what was wrong.

    19 guys.

    19 companies.

    So if anyone tells me that there is no such problem, I have to laugh.

    How would you attract trainable, smart young men to a trade at that kind of wage?



    .
    Last edited by timebuilder; 12-24-2018 at 10:04 AM.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  12. #48
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    Out here on the West Coast where I am, top pay for a tech is about 1/3 of the hourly billed rate. And the hourly rate for third party work, at least the last place I was, was about 25% less than the 'normal' rate to other customers.


    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but what I have shared is actual knowledge of business. If anyone differs with what I have said, I would ask them to articulate those differences.

    My research indicates that a company can only pay a top tech's net pay to be about 25% of the hourly billing rate. The result of the service broker reducing the hourly rate by nearly 50% in order to be sent out as a contractor for them is that a new hire tech is making somewhere in the range of a guy whose job requires that he asks, "would you like fries with that?"

    That dynamic has to be related to when I met a store manager a couple of years ago, when I was sent to his store on a service call. He told me that 19 companies had been sent to his store to fix a problem that had plagued a dog exercise room for the entire nine years he had managed that site, since the store was fitted out.

    It took me just long enough to unlock the hatch and walk over to the unit to find out what was wrong.

    19 guys.

    19 companies.

    So if anyone tells me that there is no such problem, I have to laugh.

    How would you attract trainable, smart young men to a trade at that kind of wage?



    .
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  13. #49
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    I'm talking about the net, not the gross pay. Is your net pay closer to my estimate?

    My thinking is that the third party brokers have found that 25% less is all they can do in California, where both pay and the cost of living are incredibly high. Outside Philly, it is not that way.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  14. #50
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    Of course. Especially since I don't have much to write off like I used to.


    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I'm talking about the net, not the gross pay. Is your net pay closer to my estimate?
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I'm talking about the net, not the gross pay. Is your net pay closer to my estimate?

    My thinking is that the third party brokers have found that 25% less is all they can do in California, where both pay and the cost of living are incredibly high. Outside Philly, it is not that way.
    There are only a few areas where in California the pay is high. The rest or vast part of California is in a state of wage depression. like everything else Hispanics and south of the border types have learned the trade and opened up shop. In residential you are dealing with a very tight market when considering new systems going into homes. New construction is impossible we gave up there . complete new cut ins ducts hERS testing fart fans and fireplaces sometimes and R-8 flex $5400.00. So what do you think those installs earn? So yes the right guy is worth a ton of money I do get that. My perspective is they all say they are the right guy . There not. I guessing on average you want to be at the 20 to 25 percent of gross in labor,. i would like to know what others think and I would expect guys in controls or industrial HVAC that work with chillers and higher end systems find it easer for those union wages. Residential not so much.

  16. #52
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    There is not a great deal of unionized residential work. The problem is one of finding young men to train up, and you have to attract them to the trade if you want them, and I don't see the industry trying to do that.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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