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  1. #14
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    Have some of these in to review for a while now.

    Looks; they look pretty good, they are a bit on the thick side but display is large and pretty informative on what is going on. Color is white, not tan.

    Issues below I've identified. Overall I don't get the impression this stat has benefitted from any integrator feedback, these are pretty low hanging fruit type of issues. I look forward to stopping by the Contemporary Controls booth and discussing these to see how they are addressing it, or not.

    1. The stats we were sent appropriate for a single stage heat pump with electric strips do not have any way to change the function of the reversing valve. Seems like they can add this to the engineering menu when I asked about that, maybe in a firmware update we can do ourselves with a chip programing tool they shared info on.

    2. Heating setpoint issue, when in heating mode and adjusting the setpoint the displayed setpoint is meaningless to the operator because it is the cooling setpoint (shown). The actual heating setpoint is the cooling setpoint minus the deadband (hidden away in the engineering menu) which the operator won't know about. Picture below. Might be a firmware change we can do also.

    2a. Alternately they do have firmwares available for dual setpoint functionality where the heating/cooling setpoints are different points and there is no deadband point. I rather like the current stat function though as it maintains whatever seperation you select to start with, the dual setpoint model wouldn't do that.

    3. Included setpoint overall limits don't take into account for max heating min cooling limits that some stats have and I prefer as energy savings points. While we can handle that in the front end by overwriting what the operator did after they turned their back I would prefer to handle it in the stat because the limit would be obvious to the operator when they can't go any further. Currently all the operator knows is it changed while their back was turned. Because we want these as BACnet points that apparently can't be done in a firmware change. Reading between the lines I got the impression this would not be able to be done with a firmware update because the BACnet stack is on a different chip.

    4. Fan speeds / continuous run. If you have the lowest fan speed set to something other than stop (like in commercial setting) the fan will not stop in unoccupied mode. While we can handle that programmatically in the front end while writing OCC changes I don't recall another stat I've had to do that to.

    5. Remote sensor is an either / or situation, no provision for averaging. I haven't asked about this yet. What you can do though is attach a remote sensor, use the local sensor for temp control and monitor the remote sensor through BACnet as a discharge temperature. It also appears you can order the stats with additional analog inputs to do remote temp sensor and discharge.



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    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and Smartstruxure newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  2. #15
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    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and Smartstruxure newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    1. The stats we were sent appropriate for a single stage heat pump with electric strips do not have any way to change the function of the reversing valve. Seems like they can add this to the engineering menu when I asked about that, maybe in a firmware update we can do ourselves with a chip programing tool they shared info on.
    One would hope. In the cold north its 99.9% rev valve off = heat. The more south you go, its a total grab bag and adding relays to deal with this is a PITA.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    2. Heating setpoint issue, when in heating mode and adjusting the setpoint the displayed setpoint is meaningless to the operator because it is the cooling setpoint (shown). The actual heating setpoint is the cooling setpoint minus the deadband (hidden away in the engineering menu) which the operator won't know about. Picture below. Might be a firmware change we can do also
    Would have thought they would show the midpoint between hgt/clg setpoints. That's just going to be a confusing mess for end users. Has to be a simple software tweak.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    One would hope. In the cold north its 99.9% rev valve off = heat. The more south you go, its a total grab bag and adding relays to deal with this is a PITA.
    Funny thing, our Rheems are energized for heat which I thought was the minority but we lucked out that's what the stat is.

    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Would have thought they would show the midpoint between hgt/clg setpoints. That's just going to be a confusing mess for end users. Has to be a simple software tweak.
    Midpoint wouldn't work either because if you have your deadband set to 5°F you would only ever get 2.5° close to the displayed setpoint and never achieve setpoint. So now your operators would be complaining the system shuts off too soon, or be trained they need to put the stat excessively high/low to force it to do what they want. Been thinking about this for a while and it's actually pretty complex to present to the user a simple single setpoint number but still meet the dual setpoint with 5° deadband that ashrae wants, and maintain that deadband as users adjust things.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and Smartstruxure newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    Midpoint wouldn't work either because if you have your deadband set to 5°F you would only ever get 2.5° close to the displayed setpoint and never achieve setpoint. So now your operators would be complaining the system shuts off too soon, or be trained they need to put the stat excessively high/low to force it to do what they want. Been thinking about this for a while and it's actually pretty complex to present to the user a simple single setpoint number but still meet the dual setpoint with 5° deadband that ashrae wants, and maintain that deadband as users adjust things.
    Heat ON = setpoint - 0.5 * deadband
    Heat OFF = setpoint
    Cool OFF = setpoint
    Cool ON = setpoint + 0.5 * deadband

    Expose the hgt/clg ON setpoints as the active setpoints, the median as the occ setpoint and the deadband all as BACnet points. End user isn't confused as hell, cannot cross setpoints, and one can get any hgt/clg setpoint they want with just the setpoint + deadband.

    What's wrong with that?
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  6. #19
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    I ended up ordering one of these from Contemporary Controls and have been playing with it for the past week. Setup is pretty easy, works as expected I think as any 2 stage stat.

    BUT, I have been going back and forth with Mr.Mateo with tech support on how to lock all of the buttons and be able to occ/unocc it through BACnet. I've got the Wi-Fi version. He has sent me a few things to try but still doesn't work right.

    So far there is no way to do that unless you put "Lock" (AV18) back to default which is 64 (unlocks everything), then occ/unocc (BV14) it then put AV18 back to 63 which locks the buttons.

    So...I think it still has some kinks in it, but I think once this is figured out it'll have its place.
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  7. #20
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    Sounds like the typical VRF system. It "can" do anything if you try hard enough. BYOL, aka Bring Your Own Logic...labor and engineering. Is it worth the hassle though.

    Seems like it only covers the absolute basic apps, so how hard is that to bung up? Without sequences for some of the easy energy credits, looks like just a down and dirty dirt simple stat...with headaches.
    Last edited by orion242; 12-27-2018 at 10:16 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    ...looks like just a down and dirty dirt simple stat...with headaches.
    EXACTLY. I can see these being used for a hand full of school portable classrooms or something similar, but nothing more than that.
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  9. #22
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    Just their install docs didn't impress me. Where are wiring diagrams for the typical application? Hell there are only a handful of apps, yet nothing.

    Sequence of ops, nope

    Points list, nope

    Not bothering to look for the PICS/BTL listing. They don't bother to link to them and I assume its as anemic as the rest of the documentation.


    Hopefully CC will put some work into this guy. Looks nice, could be killer for the down and dirty project. Most the problems smell like just software / documentation. Certainly something CC could deal with if they wanted to invest in it. Personally I'm not going to be writing firmware or crap loads of external logic to use it on our projects.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    EXACTLY. I can see these being used for a hand full of school portable classrooms or something similar, but nothing more than that.
    Yea if they at least fix these issues.

    Getting some of the low hanging energy creds, make it easy to use...could be a rock star.

    Will I add a relay to fix the HP rev valve issue, logic for the setpoints so the end user isn't calling weekly. Hell no... I'll get a wire there and avoid this whole mess or a less painful wireless stat.

    Viconics has wireless guessing miles ahead though haven't tried it yet.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    I ended up ordering one of these from Contemporary Controls and have been playing with it for the past week. Setup is pretty easy, works as expected I think as any 2 stage stat.

    BUT, I have been going back and forth with Mr.Mateo with tech support on how to lock all of the buttons and be able to occ/unocc it through BACnet. I've got the Wi-Fi version. He has sent me a few things to try but still doesn't work right.

    So far there is no way to do that unless you put "Lock" (AV18) back to default which is 64 (unlocks everything), then occ/unocc (BV14) it then put AV18 back to 63 which locks the buttons.

    So...I think it still has some kinks in it, but I think once this is figured out it'll have its place.
    I was working with the locks just today but hadn't gotten around to testing other things while locked, but the lock does work.

    So, setting the lock AV:17 from default zero (everything unlocked) to 63(lock just the buttons) and then commanding ESI Contact Definition BV:0 to off (occupied) resulted in ESI Status BI:0 changing and the Temperature setpoint status AI:1 moving from the unoccupied setpoint to the occupied setpoint. Seems to work, and went back when I went back to unoccupied.

    What I don't know is what the next binary bit after position 6 does, integer 64, I was only focused on the buttons when I was working earlier. Will see what the doc says tomorrow.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and Smartstruxure newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    EXACTLY. I can see these being used for a hand full of school portable classrooms or something similar, but nothing more than that.
    Pretty much all we are looking for is a less expensive way to do this, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Just their install docs didn't impress me.
    Working with Abies direct and they have sent me much more complete docs that I haven't seen post online anywhere. Will dig that up tomorrow.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and Smartstruxure newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  13. #26
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    Agreed. I was all about Can2Go filling in for the "small stuff" but SE sucked them up and that fell off the tracks for us when that happened. Back when it was still Can2Go, they were making improvements by leaps and bounds, but SE cut the head off of that.

    I am hoping something like these stats will fill in these spots, but doesn't look that way right now.
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

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