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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    Pretty much all we are looking for is a less expensive way to do this, yes.
    I get the app, it could be a great fit. Is it still worth it if you need to lay on additional hardware/labor to eliminate all the software BS and so your not hammered with BS in the warranty period?

    Seems like it could kill a razor thin project quickly unless you know all the deets and willing to spend the time to investigate all the rabbit holes. Even then, most areas have simple energy creds that would offset this if it supported it.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    I was working with the locks just today but hadn't gotten around to testing other things while locked, but the lock does work.

    So, setting the lock AV:17 from default zero (everything unlocked) to 63(lock just the buttons) and then commanding ESI Contact Definition BV:0 to off (occupied) resulted in ESI Status BI:0 changing and the Temperature setpoint status AI:1 moving from the unoccupied setpoint to the occupied setpoint. Seems to work, and went back when I went back to unoccupied.

    What I don't know is what the next binary bit after position 6 does, integer 64, I was only focused on the buttons when I was working earlier. Will see what the doc says tomorrow.
    Ah...2 points for you-that works, thanks. I'm not picky as long as I have a way to occ/uocc without having to have to do a bunch of b.s..

    Something else that is bugging me is you discover points and there is 10 tons of crap points. WHY???
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    I get the app, it could be a great fit. Is it still worth it if you need to lay on additional hardware/labor to eliminate all the software BS and so your not hammered with BS in the warranty period?

    Seems like it could kill a razor thin project quickly unless you know all the deets and willing to spend the time to investigate all the rabbit holes. Even then, most areas have simple energy creds that would offset this if it supported it.
    Agreed. If they can get this thing streamlined, get some better docs, and get some stickers that the big boys want to see, it would be a nice widget.
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Heat ON = setpoint - 0.5 * deadband
    Heat OFF = setpoint
    Cool OFF = setpoint
    Cool ON = setpoint + 0.5 * deadband

    Expose the hgt/clg ON setpoints as the active setpoints, the median as the occ setpoint and the deadband all as BACnet points. End user isn't confused as hell, cannot cross setpoints, and one can get any hgt/clg setpoint they want with just the setpoint + deadband.

    What's wrong with that?
    I read this last night and this morning and I am confused. Do you want the operator to see both setpoints or just the occ setpoint? Maybe I need to see a picture.
    Last edited by MaxBurn; 12-28-2018 at 08:33 AM.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and EcoStruxure Building Expert newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    Ah...2 points for you-that works, thanks. I'm not picky as long as I have a way to occ/uocc without having to have to do a bunch of b.s..
    I'm only commanding one point for occupancy. ESI Status BI:0 is monitored and trended only, and might be removed in the future once I'm OK with it working.

    Sure enough Page 14 Lock bit 6 value 64 has something to do with Local ESI switching. What I have noticed is after you write the lock value it takes a minute or so before that takes effect on the stat so maybe you were also dealing with lag. This is a better manual than what's posted online and has some sequence, operation, and point lists.

    TBB600-W Series-operation manual.pdf

    What I am doing is setting value 17 or 63.

    63 locks all buttons appropriate for common areas.

    17 locks just the mode and power buttons. If you allow mode to be changed there are a couple vent options that will just run the fan but no heat/cool calls and I thought that would generate no heat/cool service calls so I'm going to lock that out. Same thing with the power button.

    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    Something else that is bugging me is you discover points and there is 10 tons of crap points. WHY???
    I get the impression that the BACnet and WiFi stack is on another chip and they are using the same thing across the whole line. You will notice that neither CC or Abies list a humidistat version with WiFi but when I asked about that they said they would make me a multi stage heat pump with multi stage fan and humidity control suitable for a scholar classroom unit. If you wanted to be a little shady and control the greenwheel/OA separately you could do that too by commanding a contact from the front end.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and EcoStruxure Building Expert newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    I read this last night and this morning and I am confused. Do you want the operator to see both setpoints or just the occ setpoint? Maybe I need to see a picture.
    Say the occ setpoint is 72F with 3F deadband.

    Stat shows the occupant 72F as the setpoint and the space should always be withing +/- 1.5F.

    Heat ON - 70.5
    Heat OFF -72
    Cool OFF - 72
    Cool ON -73.5

    Occupant cannot screw up the hgt/clg setpoints. On the BACnet side it has the active hgt/clg as the ON setpoints so you can display them on the frontend without any additional logic for those that will want to see those.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Say the occ setpoint is 72F with 3F deadband.

    Stat shows the occupant 72F as the setpoint and the space should always be withing +/- 1.5F.

    Heat ON - 70.5
    Heat OFF -72
    Cool OFF - 72
    Cool ON -73.5

    Occupant cannot screw up the hgt/clg setpoints. On the BACnet side it has the active hgt/clg as the ON setpoints so you can display them on the frontend without any additional logic for those that will want to see those.
    OK so what do we do about Ashrae 90.1 section 6.4.3.1.2? I've seen it mentioned in places it prevents using a simple thermostat because they don't have a decent deadband, like the proposal here.

    As soon as you require a 5° deadband that situation doesn't work so great, but I think what I have outlined and requested of Abies with that diagram passes Ashrae and is easy on the operator.

    Or we could simply go with a dual setpoint unit which will basically work similar to the Viconics stuff, which we've received some complaints on and done some training with.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and EcoStruxure Building Expert newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  8. #34
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    Didn't look at their sequence yet, but I'm assuming this guy has a handful of issues with 90.1.

    We work with digital stats that only show a single setpoint typically, so unless its Viconics, its more or less the same. To the occupant they see the midpoint between active hgt/clg and in the background we have dead zone between them. Never really get much push back with this setup and never have to deal with the possibility of crossed setpoints in the controllers either.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  9. #35
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    Quick update-511 on the lock AV and this will lock ALL of the buttons and still allow BACnet setpoints (occ/unocc, etc.)
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    Quick update-511 on the lock AV and this will lock ALL of the buttons and still allow BACnet setpoints (occ/unocc, etc.)
    What else besides lock the buttons does that do? A 63 locked all he buttons for me.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    What else besides lock the buttons does that do? A 63 locked all he buttons for me.
    63 locks the buttons, but you couldn't occ/unocc through BACnet. Mine would blink the sun/moon icon with 63, but wouldn't change state. I know you posted you were changing BV:0 Contact Definition, but it was bugging me...
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  12. #38
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    Replying to myself to update. They gave me a new stat to test while I was at AHR, just got to it yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    1. The stats we were sent appropriate for a single stage heat pump with electric strips do not have any way to change the function of the reversing valve. Seems like they can add this to the engineering menu when I asked about that, maybe in a firmware update we can do ourselves with a chip programing tool they shared info on.
    New firmware incorporates this feature in bit 10 value 1024 for the lock register if you want the reversing valve energized in cooling.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    2. Heating setpoint issue, when in heating mode and adjusting the setpoint the displayed setpoint is meaningless to the operator because it is the cooling setpoint (shown). The actual heating setpoint is the cooling setpoint minus the deadband (hidden away in the engineering menu) which the operator won't know about. Picture below. Might be a firmware change we can do also.
    New firmware displays the correct heat setpoint while in heat mode. Which is really the cooling setpoint minus deadband. As you are sitting there pushing the button the screen makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    4. Fan speeds / continuous run. If you have the lowest fan speed set to something other than stop (like in commercial setting) the fan will not stop in unoccupied mode. While we can handle that programmatically in the front end while writing OCC changes I don't recall another stat I've had to do that to.
    New firmware stops the fan in unoccupied no matter what is being commanded. Interestingly the BACnet point also goes invalid if you are writing a speed during unoccupied.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    5. Remote sensor is an either / or situation, no provision for averaging. I haven't asked about this yet. What you can do though is attach a remote sensor, use the local sensor for temp control and monitor the remote sensor through BACnet as a discharge temperature. It also appears you can order the stats with additional analog inputs to do remote temp sensor and discharge.
    Using remote sensor for DAT works well as long as you have the correct type 3.

    New issue I didn't list before, during unoccupied time there is no way to override the stat to run temporarily. The new firmware addresses this using the SET button, each press is 30 minutes up to 2 hours and hold for 4 seconds to release. The moon unoccupied symbol blinks while this is happening. BACnet ESR feedback point changes to indicate it's running. This worked out really well.

    Took me a while to find a temp probe with a current cal certificate but after using that one sensor needed 5°F and the other needed 3°F to agree. I'm going to set the others two sensors up with DAT sensors all in a box for a stable temp before I give them any feedback but it feels like they are significantly off and need some calibration. Cal through BACnet or at the sensor works though.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and EcoStruxure Building Expert newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

  13. #39
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    Actually it's looking more like the accuracy was an infiltration issue, after adding foam backs the calibration went down to 1 and 1.4. They are interior walls but it still made a difference.
    Scott Jalbert, WebCTRL ninja, Naiagara AX and EcoStruxure Building Expert newb, SiteScan Retired

    The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried

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