Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    19
    Post Likes

    Amana (low price) vs Daikin and Lennox (high price)

    I got these three quotations.

    Amana 2-stage system:
    - Heat pump : ASZC16-0361 2-stage
    - Air handler / Coil : MBVC1600 & CZPF3743D6 (variable speed)
    - Thermostat : WR SENSI 1F86U Wi-FI

    Lennox single stage:
    - XP14 2-ton single stage
    - Air handler : CBX27UH
    - iComfort s30 thermostats

    And Daikin single stage:
    - Heat Pump : DZ14SA 2-ton single stage
    - Air handler & coil : MBVC 1200 modular blower + a modular coil module
    - Thermostat : Honeywell Wifi Vision Pro 8000


    The Amana is cheaper by a good margin, while offering more heat in winter (3-ton) and still allowing 2-ton equivalent cooling in summer on low stage (for better humidity control).

    The XP14 and Daikin DZ14SA are similar prices but higher than Amana, while being single stage 2-ton.

    Do you see a reason to justify the Lennox or Daikin higher price? Better built quality, etc.? Or should I just go with the Amana two stage?


    Thanks,

    Larry.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    Existing ductwork can handle up to 3 tons? If yes, one is communicating has a higher HSPF, probably a higher SEER and EER, better warranty ( thou 2 years less on parts than another brand ) cost less two stage vs one stage. The MBVC1600 looks to go up to 4 tons with a up to 3.5 ton coil thou, so would need to make sure existing ductwork can handle or system needs to be adjusted to your duct IMO

    You residing in Quebec you do not need to register your system to receive the maximum manufacturer warranty. Hopefully all units quoted are matched.

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/

    Check yourself before pulling trigger on brand model of your choice to make sure they are matched. Rebates may apply in your region for installing energy star rated equipment meeting a minimum SEER and HSPF and EER.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-10-2018 at 08:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    Here's your AHRI number for the Amana, its actually a CAPF3743 not a CZPF, the F stands for Flowrater metering device meaning the Installing Contractor would need to install a field install OEM TXV to achieve the ratings if you went with that brand.

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...6unnF59zU3Q//L

    Can use the cheaper MBVC1200 instead of the 1600. Better match for your ductwork?

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...V7+hdLDmINrThQ

    You pick up a whopping 400 more BTU/HR in cooling mode only with the more expensive MBVC1600 everything else is the same on paper the SEER, EER and HSPF

    Sorry did not get the AHRI number on the Lennox unit, or the Daiken ( no model number of ID coil ) to much homework.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-10-2018 at 11:45 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    19
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    The AHRI for the Amana is this : 4415329. It was provided with the quote.

    I did not precise it, but they all come with 15KW heat strips.

    I'm not sure I understand you worry about "making sure existing ductwork can handle it". Can you please comment?

    Being a variable speed system, the CFM should be adjustable to whatever speed is required, no? The 15kw heat strips being the same with all three systems, wouldn't I end-up with similar CFM with all three quotations anyway?

    But again, ... is there quality concerns with Amana compared to Lennox or Daikin? Quality of the valve, coil, paint, fan blades, etc.? Is it normal that the Amana is sold for less?

    Thanks,

    Larry.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    19
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Oops. I just realized this should have been posted in the "Residential" HVAC forum. Is there a way to move a discussion thread into a different forum?

    Sorry for the mistake.

    Larry.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    That AHRI number says discontinued

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...H6L4RjtpT4hNrV

    Do not know if you could use that number if you have rebates?

    The EER and HSPF numbers are different, the SEER is the same.

    IMO the 1200 would be a better physical fit for your duct, who knows what size your existing ductwork is rated to handle 2.5 ton as an example. I think you would have more options to set the CFM with a more closely matched duct to Air Handler than the up to 4 ton 1600

    That 15 KW heater ( from my experience installing those Goodman/Amana/Daiken heaters ) is actually a 5KW and a 10KW meaning you can break it up or tie them together for the full 15. An example when calling for electric heat 10 KW will come on, as the HP is already running or during defrost. If the HP fails and you switch to emergency then you energize the total 15 KW. That's only an example of one way you can wire it. I would ask the Installing Contractor how they plan on hooking them up. Not 100% sure on the Lennox, only guessing it's the same thing a 5 and 10KW tied together or separate?

    Not sure what the difference is between the brands you mentioned except one may offer more standard features from the manufacturer. The Amana and Daiken should be pretty close as Daiken says it has a licensing agreement with Amana.

    Amana® is a registered trademark of Maytag Corporation or its related companies and is used under license. All rights reserved.

    Certainly your comparing two 14 SEER + equipment to a 16 SEER unit, so I would think the Amana has more standard features bells and whistles than the other two.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-11-2018 at 12:37 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    Reason the number you provided being discontinued is due the last letter ( A ) in the model number is an older revision. The two current active numbers given you has a C at the end. Also hopefully the bidding contractor for the Amana and even the Daiken knows to achieve those SEER rating that they need to install the field OEM TXV. May want to ask them about that. If they come back with a revised quote price after you mention that to them to me they are somewhat clueless on how to install a matched system.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    19
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    By suggesting going with the 1200 instead of the 1600, do you mean going down to the ASZC16-0241 heat pump model as well? Or do you suggest using the 1200 with the suggested 3-ton heat pump model (ASZC16-0361)?

    Thanks,

    Larry.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    You can do anything you want, it’s just another option. Also if you have whatever brand model and size you choose and due to you installing in heat mode, the manufacturers typically require a final adjustment charge to be done in cool mode. Meaning you would need them to come back in summer to do any final adjustments IMO. The install guide will tell you.

    Also make sure they simulate a initiation of the defrost and let the machine terminate out of defrost on its own. Have them check to see if your electric heat comes on during defrost if they wire it that way. Also have them check emergency heat works. It’s part of the start up procedure.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-11-2018 at 12:05 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    19
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Regarding the 15kw heater, ... I asked the Daikin guy if the heat strips could be staged and only bring a 5kw or a 10kw heating "at the same time" the HP is heating at max capacity in order to limit the use of the heat strips; in other words, just add a few kw of heat strips to compensate for what the HP can't do. He told me that the systems were not "that" intelligent yet and it was either the HP or the heat strips running; never the two together. So when it's too cold for the heat pump alone, it simply shuts off and the heat strips would start heating by themselves (no staging on the heat strips either for the Daikin guy). If that's something the Amana can do, that's certainly a bonus!

    Regarding my duct size, the Daikin guy found my ducts quite large. He even mentioned it could be too large for a variable speed system because the airflow may not be enough to bring air on the second floor (does that make any sense)? This ductwork was designed for 100% 15kw electric heat with a 1000-1150 CFM blower. A few years later, we installed a 2-ton AC, for which we assume the blower speed was reduced to its low-speed setting of 800 CFM -- this is a PSC single speed blower.

    Thanks,

    Larry.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    Actually having the electric heat come on as the 2nd stage ( HP 1st stage single stage unit anyway ) is decades old idea. But what he suggests is certainly doable even on the Lennox or Amana. Any comment from him about the final charge adjustment being done in cool mode when OD temperature is somewhere above 60 degree.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    4,129
    Post Likes
    More info...The Lennox Air Handler looks to be a constant torque ECM motor and not a true variable as the Daiken and Amana has.

    Looks to be eligible for rebates?

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...sr+9OWp3pq6jYP

    Here is a current active AHRI number using a 2 ton Air Handler.

    Here is the AHRI number for a 2.5 ton Air Handler with the 2 ton OD unit. You did not specify what size indoor unit the Lennox Contractor bid.

    AHRI 6482931 https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...4KgwOExhJ4Y5NO

    Lastly some food for thought,

    What size lineset do you have and what did those 3 Contractors say about your existing line size? Especially the 3 ton quote Amana, the install guide recommends 3/8" OD liqiuid line and 3/4" OD vapor line for up to 24 foot of lineset run, after 24 feet the manufacturer ( Amana ) recommends going to 7/8" OD vapor line for optimal performance.

    The install guide of a Goodman DSZC16 ( basically the same thing as the Amana ASZC16 ) used the Goodman as it was more current recommended due to your snow accumulation if OD temperatures go to 15 degree F to elevate the OD unit 2.5" above the pad for better water drainage during defrost. If the OD temperature in your region is from -5 to 14 degree F to elevate OD unit 8" above the pad. If the OD unit goes below -5 to elevate the OD unit 12" aboventhe pad. Did any of the Installing Contractor mention elevating the OD unit above the pad for better water drainage? The above is a recommendation not mandatory.

    If you Air Handler is mounted higher than the OD unit on the Daiken or Amana the install guide says to install a inverted trap on the lineset vapor line slightly higher than the top of the Coil for better oil return.

    If you go with the 3 ton Amana, and you have a non fused outdoor disconnect, Amana want to see a " HACR- type circuit breaker " duty of a minimum to a maximum of 20-30 amps. Does your current breaker fall within the manufacturer spec? Did the Amana Contractor say your breaker was sized correctly for the Amana unit if you went with that brand? Your current wire size sized correctly for the larger unit?

    Did see in the install guide of the Amana/Goodman ( Probably will say the same for the Daiken ) that the final field refrigerant charge is to be done in COOL mode when the OD temperature is at 60 degree or higher.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-12-2018 at 12:48 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor MagazineThe place where Electrical professionals meet.