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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    I'm not so sure that "symbology" (name that movie!) Holds up.

    Again, kneeling is a show of submission. You could make a case for a message like: "America is becoming a tyrannical state, and as such, we should NOT be standing tall with pride, but cowering to our overlords instead." Like a wake-up call.
    Yes, kneeling can obviously be a sign of submission...but...when we are talking about physical bad a$$es, such as pro football players, who could kick the living crap out of the overwhelming majority of the human beings on the planet....well then...we should probably be able to give it a different read.

    Quote Originally Posted by shellkamp View Post
    But that doesn't fit the message that he claims he's doing it for. Hell, his life is basically a slap in the face for the people he's proclaiming to be a voice for.

    I think I'd just stay in the locker room and walk out as the anthem is wrapping up. Then upon Inquisition, I'd just tell them I can't, in good conscience, stand for a country that allows that kind of thing to happen.
    You make fair points, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree with the tactic myself, but as I was already quite cynical and critical about pro sports in general (and not just about the athletes, but also the owners, the fans, and the advertisers), I'm not likely to be terribly upset by any drama that occurs.

  2. #54
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    How it is someone as intelligent as you lacks wisdom, is something I will likely never fathom.

    You remind me of when I was working at NASA and a couple of scientists from both sides of the street would cross, meet in the middle, stop, then begin discussing things. Oblivious to the fact they were standing in the middle of the road obstructing traffic.

    Let's start at the very beginning, maybe that will help you figure things out.

    The NFL is strictly entertainment. You can call it a sport, but in the end, all it is, is entertainment.

    It is a job the players have; they provide entertainment. And get paid very well to provide that entertainment.

    They are not being paid to provide the viewers with political views.

    And the "political views" that the Cup Capernick has been "voicing" are both false and divisive. Not to mention his narrative has changed. If you were to care to research how this came about, you would learn this all started with a girl that the cup cake met. Some sort of a radio person; never looked up what she does/did.

    Bottom line, none of this stuff he did was his own original thought. He did it for his girl. Most likely, to get more sex.

    That is the beginning, the genesis, if you will. Everything else has grown from that/those seed.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    The answer to that question is that the kind of people who most closely follow team sports also happen to be the kind of people who most closely resemble herd animals. Seen in that light, the national anthem at (intra-national) sporting events functions pretty much as a ceremonial cattle call, as a reminder of the power of the herd and the comfort of belonging to it.



    On the contrary, BBeerme. Some of us don't require prompting...or more accurately, compulsion...to express and demonstrate pride about our ancestors and our country, least of all in lockstep with other attendees at recreational events. My ancestors didn't cross an ocean and slog their way through every major struggle in American history since the Revolution just so I could take on the characteristics of a herd animal.

    Honestly, it amazes me that people like you so easily forget that the American experiment is first and foremost about maximizing freedom. A true American has nothing but disdain for arbitrary conformity.

    Put that in your wisdom pipe and smoke it.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    How it is someone as intelligent as you lacks wisdom, is something I will likely never fathom.

    You remind me of when I was working at NASA and a couple of scientists from both sides of the street would cross, meet in the middle, stop, then begin discussing things. Oblivious to the fact they were standing in the middle of the road obstructing traffic.

    Let's start at the very beginning, maybe that will help you figure things out.

    The NFL is strictly entertainment. You can call it a sport, but in the end, all it is, is entertainment.

    It is a job the players have; they provide entertainment. And get paid very well to provide that entertainment.

    They are not being paid to provide the viewers with political views.

    And the "political views" that the Cup Capernick has been "voicing" are both false and divisive. Not to mention his narrative has changed. If you were to care to research how this came about, you would learn this all started with a girl that the cup cake met. Some sort of a radio person; never looked up what she does/did.

    Bottom line, none of this stuff he did was his own original thought. He did it for his girl. Most likely, to get more sex.

    That is the beginning, the genesis, if you will. Everything else has grown from that/those seed.
    Like

    That's my take. I never was a huge football fan, but it seems to me that the fans, who pay their exorbitantly out of control salaries pay to see them play football, not state their political views.

    IMO, it's the same with Hollywood celebrities. Once they decide that their political opinion somehow matters to the world, they become useless as entertainers.

    My opinion? NFL players, shut up and play. Celebrities, shut up and entertain. It's what you're paid for, and I have no use for you beyond what we pay you for.

  4. #56
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    You guys are right that Football players and other professional athletes are paid very well to play. But they are entitled to their opinion. Individually we can decide if we give any weight to their opinion. Years ago professional athletes were looked up to and considered roll models. I think OJ pretty much ended that.

    Nike is playing to their base. They really couldn't care less what a bunch of old white dudes on ARP or that watch FOX think. Their stock took a one day small hit yesterday, it already started going back up today. Its up 28% YTD.

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  6. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    You guys are right that Football players and other professional athletes are paid very well to play. But they are entitled to their opinion. Individually we can decide if we give any weight to their opinion. Years ago professional athletes were looked up to and considered roll models. I think OJ pretty much ended that.

    Nike is playing to their base. They really couldn't care less what a bunch of old white dudes on ARP or that watch FOX think. Their stock took a one day small hit yesterday, it already started going back up today. Its up 28% YTD.
    But fans don't buy tickets or turn on the TV to hear NFL players' opinion. They pay to watch football.

    If they want to hold rallies off the field (which is their workplace), not during game time (when they are on the fan's dime) OK. That is their right. Odd that they choose to "voice their opinion" only when the spotlight is on them. They're overpaid and self-serving if you ask me.

    BTW, it's much more than 'a bunch of old white dudes' who take exception.

  7. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    How it is someone as intelligent as you lacks wisdom, is something I will likely never fathom.

    You remind me of when I was working at NASA and a couple of scientists from both sides of the street would cross, meet in the middle, stop, then begin discussing things. Oblivious to the fact they were standing in the middle of the road obstructing traffic.

    Let's start at the very beginning, maybe that will help you figure things out.

    The NFL is strictly entertainment. You can call it a sport, but in the end, all it is, is entertainment.

    It is a job the players have; they provide entertainment. And get paid very well to provide that entertainment.

    They are not being paid to provide the viewers with political views.

    And the "political views" that the Cup Capernick has been "voicing" are both false and divisive. Not to mention his narrative has changed. If you were to care to research how this came about, you would learn this all started with a girl that the cup cake met. Some sort of a radio person; never looked up what she does/did.

    Bottom line, none of this stuff he did was his own original thought. He did it for his girl. Most likely, to get more sex.

    That is the beginning, the genesis, if you will. Everything else has grown from that/those seed.
    First off, thank you for the comparison to NASA scientists, but in all honesty, I'm afraid I can't accept the (clearly diluted) compliment. Truth is, my situation is worse than you imagine, as my IQ is well below the level of the average brainiac working for NASA. So, for future reference, should you run across men of average intelligence who have stopped in the middle of the street to have a conversation, then and only then would you have found a comparable specimen to me!

    Now back to the issue at hand....

    You'll probably feel reassured to hear that I don't, in any way, take issue with your argument about the employment aspect. I remember you making that argument a good while ago, and though I hated to see justified means for limiting any example of speech, I agreed that NFL players were obligated to comply with any and all conditions of their contracts, including any and all codes of conduct that their employers had in place at the time of their hiring. Having said that, however, I think it would be perfectly fine if, during the contract negotiation process, players were to insist on a clause releasing them from the obligation to observe a certain form of cultural behavior that has no bearing whatsoever on the playing of the game, or on any other aspect of the business.

    And that is the heart of the issue I brought up: the creepy cultural phenomenon of compulsory patriotism, ie. the expectation that everyone (players, fans, etc) should stand for a rendition of the national anthem at a sporting event. Wax as patriotic as you like, feel free to give a speech on the importance of tradition, but try as you might, you'll never come up with a convincing argument as to why free citizens ought to be systematically compelled to embrace certain cultural norms. This is America, land of the free, a place where monarchies and state religions were thrown off like the shackles they were. Compulsory adherence to any thing but the rule of law, constitutional law, has no place here. Get it?

    One last clarification. I have never ever argued in support of Kaepernick's thought process (I don't even know or care what it is) or the prudence of the on-field protests (if we even assume that it was born of an authentic grievance). Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if Kaepernick's thoughts on racism and social equality were laughably incoherent, or if the virtue-signalling by most of the protesting players were completely hypocritical. My main concern is just this: no people should have any particular flavor of 'national pride' compelled upon them.

  8. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    You guys are right that Football players and other professional athletes are paid very well to play. But they are entitled to their opinion. Individually we can decide if we give any weight to their opinion. Years ago professional athletes were looked up to and considered roll models. I think OJ pretty much ended that.

    Nike is playing to their base. They really couldn't care less what a bunch of old white dudes on ARP or that watch FOX think. Their stock took a one day small hit yesterday, it already started going back up today. Its up 28% YTD.
    'Like'

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    But fans don't buy tickets or turn on the TV to hear NFL players' opinion. They pay to watch football.

    If they want to hold rallies off the field (which is their workplace), not during game time (when they are on the fan's dime) OK. That is their right. Odd that they choose to "voice their opinion" only when the spotlight is on them. They're overpaid and self-serving if you ask me.

    BTW, it's much more than 'a bunch of old white dudes' who take exception.
    Are you saying you're 'ethnic', vin? Haha...just kidding.

    I have to ask about these 'rallies' you referred to. When did they ever happen on the field? Ooohhhhh....you mean the hitting of a certain pose during the playing of a certain song....that's the kind of 'rally' you're so bent out of shape by, huh? Too wild and rambunctious a display for you, huh?


  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post

    And that is the heart of the issue I brought up: the creepy cultural phenomenon of compulsory patriotism, ie. the expectation that everyone (players, fans, etc) should stand for a rendition of the national anthem at a sporting event. Wax as patriotic as you like, feel free to give a speech on the importance of tradition, but try as you might, you'll never come up with a convincing argument as to why free citizens ought to be systematically compelled to embrace certain cultural norms. This is America, land of the free, a place where monarchies and state religions were thrown off like the shackles they were. Compulsory adherence to any thing but the rule of law, constitutional law, has no place here. Get it?
    Perhaps I wasn't articulate enough with my response on this before.

    It may sound silly, but I think the national anthem before the game assigns a certain "meaning" to it (the game). It's acknowledging that there's something bigger than all of us (even if in this case it's "the state"), and that the game would be devolve into something not unlike watching a bum fight.

    You could argue that it's merely a way to reconcile watching a bunch of guys essentially "do battle" without feeling like a complete monster from getting pleasure from it, and I'd say that's mostly accurate. But I do think it would be another chink in the armor of our country if we got rid of that type of tradition.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

  12. #62
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    Actually the whole issue to me is screw pro football.

    Let them burn the flag if the want to, raise their first and drop thir pants during the playing of the national anthem.

    I'll watch college football. They can go play pro football to their nonpaying getto base and go to hell. Yeah. Thank you, thank you very much

  13. #63
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    You want to lower yourself to a bum fight?

    I was thinking you and MM. I'd pay to watch that.


    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Actually the whole issue to me is screw pro football.

    Let them burn the flag if the want to, raise their first and drop thir pants during the playing of the national anthem.

    I'll watch college football. They can go play pro football to their nonpaying getto base and go to hell. Yeah. Thank you, thank you very much
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  14. #64
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    I think college fb is more screwed up than the nfl.

    Big fat government supported universities, bringing in "students" who are not qualified to be there, and paying coaches millions of dollars. Id be okay with them doing whatever they want...as long as no government money was doled their way...

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  16. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    The tension lies between a need for traditions and an equal need for updating them over time. As nature would have it, the strength (and weakness) of the conservative types is that they're inclined to focus on the maintenance of tradition, and the strength (and weakness) of liberals is that they're inclined to focus on change. The trick is...how do we strike a balance between the two equally importance impulses?

    Of course, there's some value in a national anthem, but I was specifically addressing its use at national (as opposed to international) sporting events. I mean...really, what the heck does the commencement of a pro football game have to do with the founding of our country and with fallen veterans? Lemme answer for ya: Pretty much NOTHING.
    suppose apple pie and baseball and hot dogs have pretty much nothing to do with America either huh ? funny how a person can twist and manipulate an argument to fit their political ideology

    how many seats have democrats lost nationwide over the last 9 years, 1,200 or so ? go ahead, keep thinking football has nothing to do with the founding of this country or fallen veterans, need to retain the house and senate and get more of Trumps agenda through, may as well throw in another justice while we are at it

    BTW, we already figured out the radical left has no intention of compromising

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