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  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
    I work in healthcare. There are many checks and balances.
    I'm sure you have many forms to fill out with boxes to check but at the end of the day, your industry enjoys the greatest luxury...you get paid regardless of the outcome or level of customer satisfaction.

    High mindedness is not a good trait.

  2. #15
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    Jul 2018
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    @HVAC_Marc. But if I do go smaller, and then later some day I replace my KD rigid later to R-6 wire flex, would the smaller size be able to handle the newer, wider diameter wire flex ducts?

    @btuhack, I would assume you would still get paid regardless of the outcome? When you finish the job, dont you get paid? Im not following, can you explain high mindedness is not a good trait. Not sure how to interpret that.

  3. #16
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    Aug 2002
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    Southold, NY
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    You dont size for what ifs, down the road, we plan on!

    Most duct systems are bear bones minimum to begin with, by installing larger equipment it smaller still. Go with the 3-1/2

  4. #17
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    Mar 2013
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    Billington Heights, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
    @HVAC_Marc. But if I do go smaller, and then later some day I replace my KD rigid later to R-6 wire flex, would the smaller size be able to handle the newer, wider diameter wire flex ducts?

    @btuhack, I would assume you would still get paid regardless of the outcome? When you finish the job, don’t you get paid? I’m not following, can you explain “high mindedness is not a good trait.” Not sure how to interpret that.
    Why would you install more restrictive flexible duct? Ridgid duct can be insulated, too.

    In general, larger ducts perform better than smaller ducts.

  5. #18
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    Jul 2018
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    Thread Starter
    So sounds like the 3.5 ton could handle my current KD ducting, but wouldnt any new flexible duct be designed & sized appropriately per a manual D to work with the existing furnace/AC at that time? I mean if customers dont always replace their existing duct work with their system, thats what I assume it is even that much more imperative that it would be designed properly, correct?

    @ HVAC_Marc, its not that I want to install more restrictive flexible ducting, its that I still speculate if it should be done at this given time. Some of the reasons is due to the 14-16% leakage, 225 CFMs per the home energy assessment, and the improvement of balanced airflow b/c the ducts would be wider - say 8. Our master bedroom is at the terminus, & stays slightly colder in the winter vs the other rooms. I dont know the exact degrees, but I assume its only a couple degrees if that. I thought by having wider dogs it would allow more CFMs because my current duck work is limited. One contractor estimated that my ducts only allow 790 CFMs. He had measured all of the registers. He didnt go in the crawlspace but was extrapolated the data based off of register measurements. Is that even possible? So if 3 1/2 ton can provide 1400 CFMs. And my KD only allows lets say 800 CFMs, thats why I thought wider ducts would allow more balanced flow. And, wouldnt my system work harder attempting to push that much air through narrower ducts. assume. However, if existing ducts have to pass a Title 24 HERS at < or = 15% leakage my ducting does not seem too bad.

    I currently have are R-2 insulation on the ducts. Not sure if its a bait and switch, but all contractors Ive met are stating that its just cost prohibitive to further insulate my current ducts, and replacing would be just as much. Makes me think that I should just go in the crawl space and do my best to try to wrap the ducts.

  6. #19
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    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
    So sounds like the 3.5 ton could handle my current KD ducting, but wouldnt any new flexible duct be designed & sized appropriately per a manual D to work with the existing furnace/AC at that time? I mean if customers dont always replace their existing duct work with their system, thats what I assume it is even that much more imperative that it would be designed properly, correct? If your existing duct system only supports 800 CFM you dont go putting in a 1400 CFM system and *maybe* replace the ducts later. You put in the system that will run on the 800 CFM ducts.

    @ HVAC_Marc, its not that I want to install more restrictive flexible ducting, its that I still speculate if it should be done at this given time. Some of the reasons is due to the 14-16% leakage, 225 CFMs per the home energy assessment, and the improvement of balanced airflow b/c the ducts would be wider - say 8. I believe the process to seal ducts in place is called Aeroseal. (Pros please correct me if wrong). It would remedy a lot of your leakage. Our master bedroom is at the terminus, & stays slightly colder in the winter vs the other rooms. That's normal for rooms on the end of a long run. I dont know the exact degrees, but I assume its only a couple degrees if that. I thought by having wider dogs it would allow more CFMs because my current duck work is limited. Trust me on this - wider dogs make for less air flow

    One contractor estimated that my ducts only allow 790 CFMs. He had measured all of the registers. He didnt go in the crawlspace but was extrapolated the data based off of register measurements. He guessed. Measurements of ducts, quantity of each, pressure and flow will tell you actual capacity. There are some cheat sheets available but he still needs the data. Is that even possible? So if 3 1/2 ton can provide 1400 CFMs. And my KD only allows lets say 800 CFMs, thats why I thought wider ducts would allow more balanced flow. And, wouldnt my system work harder attempting to push that much air through narrower ducts. assume. However, if existing ducts have to pass a Title 24 HERS at < or = 15% leakage my ducting does not seem too bad.

    I currently have are R-2 insulation on the ducts. Not sure if its a bait and switch, but all contractors Ive met are stating that its just cost prohibitive to further insulate my current ducts, and replacing would be just as much. Makes me think that I should just go in the crawl space and do my best to try to wrap the ducts.
    You can wrap the ducts yourself. It's not fun. I usually sleeve the round with R8, though the ducts need to be disconnected to do it. The square gets faced fiberglass or bubble wrap.

    https://aeroseal.com/

  7. #20
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    Aug 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    This is a red flag for us, we will not come out and bid a job, that has had more than two bids.
    The more prices they get, the higher ours get...........only game where the "Award" losing money if you want to be the cheapest

  8. Likes HVAC_Marc, kdean1 liked this post
  9. #21
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    Jul 2018
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    @Dan sw fl, and others. So, I was wrong in some ways. My existing furnace is a 1990 Amana 80% 9 seer 6 eer, but it is 115,000 btu input, 92,000 output. But, perhaps you experts already picked up on that. Figured I'd just be clear.

    My house is 2024 sq ft, but I don't think that would change the load calc too much Dan.

    Met w/ couple more contractors. Awaiting some bids. Got one and more info/detail about one previously eluded too. The 3 contractors I have narrowed it down install different brands, which are Carrier, Bryant, Trane. Any would be acceptable. I only have two of the three bids and am awaiting the 3rd. Content with all three contractors, however some stick out more than others, for which I'll discuss. Off course the pricing varies more than I thought, but I am willing to pay for quality install vs. going only with cheapest. Priorities are 1) quality, solid install by competent skilled team, 2) warranty, 3) guarantee, 4) reliability, 5) parts availability, and 6) price.

    Those 3 brands (two are nearly one of the same but vary in price - Carrier (top of line), Bryant (middle)) are all reliable and parts are readily available, but I think that the nod would go to United Technologies (Carrier/Bryant) for better availability of parts distributors (just a hunch by the breadth of installers of those brands in my area).

    The contractors vary in there skills as marked by their qualifications.

    Comany 1 - Trane estimator
    Trane estimator was the owner of the company, which meant something.
    He has been at this >20 years, teaches HVAC classes at a local JC
    Website shows NATE certified, but could not find him at NATE
    BPI certified
    Not listed at Trane website, so question if he is a Trane factory authorized installer
    Strong reviews at the rating companies and Google reviews

    Company 2 - Carrier contractor
    Company in business since 1953
    Out of the 3 contractors, this company has the most + reviews of all the rating companies and Google reviews
    Longest warranty/guarantee - 10 year parts, 10 year labor (but to get the 10 yr labor they must do a maintenance visit 2 times each year. Customer pays for 1 maintenance visit, but it includes 2 visits per year. This is not paid upfront or anything at this time. Its just what they state if customer wants the 10 yr labor warranty. 1st year covered with initial AC/furnace purchase)
    Carrier Factory Authorized dealer (thus, offer 100% satisfaction guarantee)
    Carrier President's Choice Dealer
    Unable to verify at the NATE website that they are certified, but at Carrier it shows they are NATE certified
    Even though have not received 3 estimate, I am + they will be the priciest
    The estimator did mention that the company is under new management, but was purchased but a corporation that owns many HVAC companies and has a lot of resources readily available
    Estimator stated that since his company has a large name in they Bay area, they have grown and now have a 11,000 sf warehouse so parts are readily available
    There are some other guarantees that I will share as I remember them, find those documents

    Company 3 - Bryant contractor
    In business since 1960
    Most local name and locally referred
    Not NATE certified or any specialized certification
    Not Bryant dealer as listed at their website, but not factory authorized dealer so doesn't have 100% satisfaction guarantee
    Least amount of reviews of the 3 companies, but the reviews are all strong among the rating companies and Google reviews

    From initial impressions, I like the reassurance of purchasing from a factory authorized dealer d/t the 100% satisfaction guarantee, and that those dealers receive the most support and their employees/techs would get the most training. Comes at a cost, but perhaps that peace of mind is worth it.

    will get to to some model/brand specific questions in a followup

  10. #22
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    Jul 2018
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    Have some questions on Carrier furnaces (I'd assume this will apply to the replica models in Bryant, but I'll just use Carrier for sake of the questions).
    I am having the HVAC contractor who is the Carrier factory authorized dealer run me quotes on the Performance furnace 59TP6 so that I could compare against his quote for the Infinity furnace 59TN6. When I asked him why he first priced out the Infinity series, this was his response:
    The reason that we offered you the Infinity system was in part because of the existing ducting that we are working and with and the fact that the Infinity system attenuates itself based on the static pressure and conditions. Although it can run at full capacity if needed, if your ducting doesn’t allow for full operation, it reduces the amount of cfm that is produced by the unit.

    1. Is this true about the Carrier Infinity 59TN6 vs. the Performance 59TP6? When I looked at each at the Carrier site, I did not read anything like what he stated. In fact, it only sounded like the one that could do something as he mentioned is the Carrier Infinity with Greenspeed 59MN7.

    2. Is it true that on the Infinity series furnace, I have to use their Carrier branded thermostat to obtain the necessary benefit from the furnace?

    3. Can someone please explain the key differences in the technology between the Carrier Infinity with Greenspeed, Carrier Infinity, and Carrier Performance?

    Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

  11. #23
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    Thread Starter
    Also, is it generally recommended to go with the same brand coil as the condenser and furnace? I notice ADP is used for Bryant/Carrier.

  12. #24
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    Aug 2013
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    Visalia California 93291
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
    Also, is it generally recommended to go with the same brand coil as the condenser and furnace? I notice ADP is used for Bryant/Carrier.
    That's an uneducated contractor ...A VS motor ( and the TP is VS just like the TN) will try and get the airflow it was programmed based upon feedback to the motor ...any VS does that..it is also a bad thing as PSC motors masked all the undersized duct systems out there, in walks Mr VS motor and say" I can get the air through that" and kills himself doing it....Mr PSC was lazy and just moved what air it could

  13. Likes rcstl liked this post
  14. #25
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    Jul 2018
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    Thread Starter
    Got a question about feasibility/practicality of some systems.

    One contractor shows in his bid: Furnace Bryant 96% 2 stage VS 926TA60080V21, with Bryant condenser 106ANA042, coil CNPVP4221. AHRI certificate 9496807, which shows production stopped.
    Is that a problem if it shows production stopped?

    Or he showed I could go same furnace but with AC condenser 105ANA042. AHRI certificate 9845301.

    Is it acceptable and practical to go with a 3.5 ton condenser, but with a 5 ton furnace?

    The condenser in these series works better b/c of the ~32" footprint.

    Here is what I got from the Trane contractor. I can't tell decipher the furnace model to know the size of the blower motor.
    Furnace S9V2B080D4PSAA, AC 4TTR6042J1000A, coil 4PXCBD48BS3HDA. AHRI certificate 201806000.
    This AHRI also shows production stopped.
    What size blower motor is on the furnace?

  15. #26
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    Jul 2012
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    Bridgeton, MO, 'burb of St. Louis, Mo
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
    Got a question about feasibility/practicality of some systems.

    One contractor shows in his bid: Furnace Bryant 96% 2 stage VS 926TA60080V21, with Bryant condenser 106ANA042, coil CNPVP4221. AHRI certificate 9496807, which shows production stopped.
    Is that a problem if it shows production stopped?

    Or he showed I could go same furnace but with AC condenser 105ANA042. AHRI certificate 9845301.

    Is it acceptable and practical to go with a 3.5 ton condenser, but with a 5 ton furnace?

    The condenser in these series works better b/c of the ~32" footprint.

    Here is what I got from the Trane contractor. I can't tell decipher the furnace model to know the size of the blower motor.
    Furnace S9V2B080D4PSAA, AC 4TTR6042J1000A, coil 4PXCBD48BS3HDA. AHRI certificate 201806000.
    This AHRI also shows production stopped.
    What size blower motor is on the furnace?
    Furnace ratings are the max that they are rated for. They can be adjusted in a range, likely 3 to 5 ton for ac mode. Just a matter of adjusting the blower speed. Try to trust the installer, ask him to show you the installation instructions where it explains airflow based on TESP at blower speed.


    If thinking was easy,
    everyone would do it!


    The genius of the United States Constitution - when it frustrates the government, you know it is working. Truly, a timeless quote!

    RIP Mr. Gizmo; end of watch 10/27/16. I will never forget this furball.

    hvac_marc said "it's actually 90 right now in this shaded area of satan's butthole."

    Don't believe signature quotes. - George Washington

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