Contractor Could Not Install Combustion Air Pipes to Complete Installation - Help!
A contractor encountered problems trying to install a Trane 2.5-ton system the day before yesterday. He was supposed to call yesterday about finishing the job, but I haven’t heard from him. I would appreciate advice before I talk to him.
The problem was with the installation of the XV80 Furnace (TUD2B060A9V3VB) in the closet, specifically the combustion air pipes. When he had everything else installed, the installer could not fit the combustion air pipe that should end close to the floor into the closet. He said they would have to solve this another day. He wanted me to pay for the installation, but I refused to pay until the job was done, and done neatly and in compliance with code so that it will pass inspection.
The sealed closet is 34” deep, 25.5” wide, and 82” high. Clearance where he needed to put the longer combustion air pipe, between the left side of the furnace and the wall, is 4.2”, in which the hard gas piping takes up 3.75” between the front of the furnace and the wall.
Unable to figure anything else out with the 5” pipe he had, he looked at placing it in front of the gas valve, but the valve forced it to be angled towards the door. It would have touched the door, been against the gas piping, interfering with valve access, and been in front of the left 0.8 inches of the furnace. I don’t know if it would have worked or passed code, but it looked so unsightly and unprofessional that I would never consider buying a house with a furnace installation that looked like that. He didn’t seem to think it acceptable, but I worry what others at the company will try to force upon me. I want this $ job to enhance my house, not devalue it.
The last conversation at the end of the day before yesterday, it sounded like they intended to come back and force a 5” pipe into the 4.2 inch space left of the furnace, then connect it to a 5” pipe coming from the ceiling towards the front with two 90 degree bends. It seems difficult to find connectors for a deformed pipe so that all the joints will fit tightly for this to look professional and neat, and I assumed the pipe should have a slope, in case of condensation, which it would not between the two 90 bends. Also, I don’t like the idea of forcing the pipe in, scraping the paint, and leaving constant pressure against the side of the furnace. I assume something that looks good could be specially fabricated, but they seem to be avoiding this.
I would greatly appreciate advice. I picked this contractor because they get good reviews on Yelp, Angie’s List and Google, so I never expected problems. I could have installed a narrower furnace, but chose this for multiple speeds. They said a narrower furnace would fit easier, but that this would also fit. If they can fabricate something that would fit, look good and pass inspection, I’d be overjoyed to pay them and be done with this. If they can’t make it look right, I would want them to remove everything so that I can go with the narrower option without extra speeds that wouldn't be an eyesore in the closet. I hope they are motivated and will resolve this, but I am worried they will try to force a bad installation on me that would eat at me forever.
Extra information:
This was supposed to have been permitted, but I called the inspectors, and they tell me they have not received a permit request from the contractor. They also tell me he should have done a manual j load calculation to comply with the permit, which he did not do. I checked further, and it seems I may have selected a larger system than I needed. I have an 1179 sf house built in 1967. Insulation was added, closet sealed, and ductwork wrapped in about 1989. Guidelines from my electric provider suggest 2 tons for homes up to 1200 s.f. The old condenser was 2.5 tons, and the furnace was 3-tons. When I asked the contractor if I should get a 2 or 2.5 ton, he suggested I get a 2.5 ton if I left everything else alone, and a 2-ton if I went through a rebate program to install solar screens on my single-pane windows, increase attic insulation to R-38, do more sealing of the ductwork, and seal all the doors. To be clear, it's not my goal to get the contractor to remove what he installed just to change to a 2-ton, even if it might have been more appropriate. That wouldn't be fair.
Other clearances:
Clearance to the right is 3.7”, in which an electrical switch box takes up 2” at the front of the furnace.
Clearance from the face of the furnace to the doorframe is about 5.5” clearance, with about another 1.4” to the inside surface of the door.
The connection to the ductwork leaves about 7” towards the front of the closet in which to place the combustion pipes.
What a cluster.... 5" vent pipe sure seems big for that furnace.
__________________________________________________ _______________________ “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden "When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
Move the gas line. Install oval pipe with an oval to round adapter.
I'm not a plumber, but I have a hard time picturing how moving the gas valve could be accomplished in a way that would help. It's too close to the front to fit a pipe in without looking very bad and blocking it, and moving it back would still mean it is blocked by a straight pipe. As the installer was giving up, I was frantically trying to find a solution for him to pass on, and I did run across these oval pipes and suggest he look into it. I thought this could be placed between the wall and the furnace, with 45 degree angle connections to line up with a pipe coming in from the top, but I haven't found adapters or transitions to make it work. I'm trying to figure out how to add a photo.
I'm wondering if it is vent pipe or combustion air pipe. The OP said combustion air and sealed closet.
The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ
The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ
I just tried uploading an attachment to show the corner with the gas line. If I haven't done it correctly, I'll try again. Yes, to be clear this is combustion air for a sealed closet.
What a cluster.... 5" vent pipe sure seems big for that furnace.
I tried an online calculator to determine the area needed for combustion air pipes. When I googled the model number for my furnace, it said 60,000 BTU. Dividing that by 4000, if I am understanding correctly, yields 15 square inches needed for each of the two pipes (high and low). The area of a 5” pipe is 19.6 square inches. A four inch is only 12.6 inches, so not enough. I’d welcome anyone pointing out any error I've made.
I tried an online calculator to determine the area needed for combustion air pipes. When I googled the model number for my furnace, it said 60,000 BTU. Dividing that by 4000, if I am understanding correctly, yields 15 square inches needed for each of the two pipes (high and low). The area of a 5” pipe is 19.6 square inches. A four inch is only 12.6 inches, so not enough. I’d welcome anyone pointing out any error I've made.
When you first posted I was thinking you were talking “vent pipe” so that’s probably the right size for combustion air.
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__________________________________________________ _______________________ “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden "When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
I'm not a plumber, but I have a hard time picturing how moving the gas valve could be accomplished in a way that would help. It's too close to the front to fit a pipe in without looking very bad and blocking it, and moving it back would still mean it is blocked by a straight pipe. As the installer was giving up, I was frantically trying to find a solution for him to pass on, and I did run across these oval pipes and suggest he look into it. I thought this could be placed between the wall and the furnace, with 45 degree angle connections to line up with a pipe coming in from the top, but I haven't found adapters or transitions to make it work. I'm trying to figure out how to add a photo.
The supplier of the oval pipe will likely have the fittings too. Oval pipe is very common. Most pro supply houses have it.
The supplier of the oval pipe will likely have the fittings too. Oval pipe is very common. Most pro supply houses have it.
I do see a limited number of fittings. I suppose a 6" oval pipe next to the furnace transitioning to a 5" round, then a 45 degree, and another 45 degree, then straight up through the ceiling might possibly work, but I haven't found all the necessary fittings, yet.
Can anyone tell me whether the area has to be increased if the pipe has angles? When I took hydrology, angles decreased flow. Am I right in assuming a horizontal run between angles would be a bad idea due to the need to drain possible condensation, not to mention a 45 degree would affect flow less?
Thank you to everyone who has so far tried to help. I am feeling a little less stressed at the possibilities.
I don't know what your code is but per your closet dimensions the installation wouldn't pass anyway here. You have a 25" wide closet with a 17.5" furnace, leaving 7.5" of free space. Code here requires the closet to be at least 12" wider than the furnace to be installed. You can put the furnace anywhere with in an inch of the wall with the balance of room on the other side, center it, or anything in between but you have to have the 12" more than the furnace takes up.
The second thing is you are concerned about how a rigid pipe will look with that appliance connector looking line a yellow snake trying to climb the wall? I can see how a pipe going across in front of the gas valve would make it harder to work on but at least it would hide the yellow boa.
Sorry if this seems a little harsh. Sometimes we have to deal with reality whether we want to or not. From what you have posted it sounds like the contractor is trying to do what you want and deal as best as he can with code. Somewhere in the process he found himself between a rock and hard spot. Maybe if you cut him some slack he can find enough wiggle room to come up with a workable solution.
Im not entirely sure why you need to run this to the base of the furnace? All you need is something that allows air into the room to equalize pressures. It can go anywhere in the room.
Im not entirely sure why you need to run this to the base of the furnace? All you need is something that allows air into the room to equalize pressures. It can go anywhere in the room.
I remember being told there had to be BOTH a high AND low supply, grill or pipe.
The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ
2 combustion air sources are required, 1 within the upper 12" of the closet, 1 within the lower 12'', and the area of the opening needs to equal 1 sq/inch per 4000 btus of gross burner capacity (60k seems like a lot for the house).
Or, 1 air source freely communicating with the outdoors can be used equaling 1 sq/inch per 3000 btus and must within 12'' of the closet ceiling.
If the work had been permitted prior to the install, a reasonable inspector would likely sign off on 1 upper but he'll probably be a little grumpy if he knows the building department was circumvented.
Maybe so that the room didnt get too much hot/cold air in one place?
It's to ensure you have the required amount of air should one become blocked. Unlikely both would be blocked.
The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ
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