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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    So you are saying...

    That when you get long winded...
    The rest of us need CBR gear...
    Not at all Ga-,.. I was speaking of when You Get Cranky,& "Gassy".
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    I'm not sure what you're suggesting but my point was if most patients are already getting steam rolled as you put it, then adding tort reform would only create another barrier that the little guy could not possibly over come. When people talk of tort reform they usually mean having the government decide on the limits of your case no matter how egregious the damages may be. Basically it protects the insurance companies & big corporations which in theory should lower costs to the consumer. The first part it definitely does but the second part is questionable. Even if it does lower costs IMO the trade off is not worth it. You make a point about the problems a too powerful gov. creates & yet you want to give them more power to control the awards a jury can dish out after hearing the facts of a case. Most damage cases never go to a jury because of the costs involved & the risks for each side. With tort reform the insurance company's already know the exact amount of their risk so the cards are stacked against the plaintiff.
    I am not really for major TORT reform. I was just stating it adds more to the health care bill than people of he left will admit to. Though the vast majority know it to be true. They cite the stats that malpractice lawsuits are only 2% of hospital expenses or something stupid like that. But they all know that your bill is double what it should be because they load up unnecessary tests and labs to cover their backside.

    I focus on the cause of the corporate takeover of the entire health care system. That's the root cause of the issues in health care. That includes patients rights and fair compensation.

  3. #68
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    I remember watching a glass pan of water being heated in high school chemistry class. When it was heated past 212, it wouldn't boil unless the teacher dropped a rock or some other small object into the water. The steam bubbles formed on the object, but not the inside of the pan. The pan was too smooth.

    Nowadays, when I make instant coffee, I microwave a mug of hot water for two minutes and dump in the ingredients. If I dump them in right away, the water boils for a few seconds. If I let the water cook for more than two minutes, it boils over when I add them. A third of the water instantly turns to foam and spreads across the counter like an ocean wave on the sand.

    The McDonald's coffee incident involved superheated microwaved coffee. IIRC, people had complained that their to-go coffee wasn't hot by the time they got to work, so McD's started microwaving it. The lady who spilled it in her lap didn't just get scalded, she got burned -- second and third degree.

    This was one of those "frivolous" lawsuits that wasn't so frivolous.

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....ghlight=coffee
    Vacuum Technology:
    CRUD = Contamination Resulting in Undesirable Deposits.
    CRAPP = Contamination Resulting in Additional Partial Pressure.

    Change your vacuum pump oil now.

    Test. Testing, 1,2,3.

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  5. #69
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    Hot liquids and food are bad for your teeth and mouth. Read that in a study a few years ago. Hot liquids can harm your teeth worse than sugar. I never drink or eat anything hot. Burnt the top of my mouth biting into a hot pizza at Pizza Hut about 30 years ago. Hurt bad and once was enough for me. Thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."

    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Sen. Barry Goldwater

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  7. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidadavis View Post
    Gary, I knew all that. But my point is, why should that one woman get all the punitive damages placed on McD's to get them to change their policy? Why wasn't it split out for the other burn victims?

    I think it should be easier to sue for small amounts, but we should take away the punitive measures being rewarded to individuals.

    Lawsuit damages usually get split when there are multiple plaintiffs but in this case it was just one woman suing & all the other burn cases came to light during discovery. How many of them sued too i don't know but all the other cases showed that McDonald's was aware of the problem & didn't consider it important enough to fix. This woman was hospitalized for a week or so & had permanent damage. The jury even said that the woman had to bare some of the blame which reduced her actual damages but the big number they came up with was punitive damages because McDonald's was aware of the excessive temperature causing burns & was not concerned. In the transcripts that I read they were cited by the health department numerous times because of burns at the take-out window prior to this case too.
    Without punitive damages, dangerous policies might never change. If a thief robs someone at gunpoint for $100 & gets caught & their only punishment is they have to give back the $100 then what is to stop them from doing it again.
    The problem with suing for small amounts is that no one ever really gets compensated enough that it is worth their time & effort & expense to sue. That's exactly what happens in class action suits where 10 million dollars is awarded & each plaintiff might receive a hundred dollars or less. At least it is still a way to keep big guys accountable. There are some states like SC that will not even allow a class action lawsuit if the amount is not over $100 per person. That means that the cable company can unfairly bill a million customers for $50 each & no class action suit can be file against them. No one is going to get a lawyer to sue for $50.00 either. That is just one example of tort reform where the people get screwed out of their right to just compensation.
    Gary
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    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  8. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    I am not really for major TORT reform. I was just stating it adds more to the health care bill than people of he left will admit to. Though the vast majority know it to be true. They cite the stats that malpractice lawsuits are only 2% of hospital expenses or something stupid like that. But they all know that your bill is double what it should be because they load up unnecessary tests and labs to cover their backside.

    I focus on the cause of the corporate takeover of the entire health care system. That's the root cause of the issues in health care. That includes patients rights and fair compensation.
    Logically you would think that tort reform would cut down on health care costs & unnecessary tests but from what data I can find on Texas which has strong tort law it has not seemed to make much difference in costs. Maybe it's because now the hospitals are so used to the income produced by all those tests that they still want them done regardless of less liability. Either way the tort reform lowering the legal consequences don't seem to be as much a factor in cutting costs as thought. One thing that people fail to realize is that malpractice itself is a serious problem that it is far more overlooked than the lawsuits it creates. The lawsuits do cost money which is definitely a problem but malpractice causes pain & suffering & sometimes death that no amount of money can heal. You're always going to have people that take advantage of the system no matter what you do but that is no reason to stop or limit legitimate compensation.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  9. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    The myth is the facts of the case that never got reported. The jury found the lady partially at fault so she was only awarded partial damages to pay the hospital bill but the big award was for punitive damages against McDonald's. I thought like everyone else about how ridiculous the case was until my attorney showed me a partial transcript of the case many years ago. After reading it I agreed with the jury & I think most Americans conservative or liberal would too if they knew all the facts. You probably won't be able to find all the facts but any quick search will give you at least some idea of the real story if you want to get a little closer to the truth.



    At least we agree on something
    I'll go Back & Dig Those "Mythical Facts" Up Sir.

    I Got concerned over the matter back then cuz' I ran in to a Couple of "Nut jobs" that were Customers, & I thought "What if".
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  10. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    I actually agree with you on this one GA, The only thing I would add is that it's not just Democrat's but pretty much all politicians. We only choose between what we perceive as the lesser of two evils.
    My Position, due to not just listening to the Media releases, like a Good & Obedient Sheeple, but actually researching many of the Laws such as the Homeland Security Act, Patriot Act, & National Defense Authorization Acts for examples, as well as Studying the History of the Republican & Democrat Regimes & their Actions,& Current Events , .... Led me to the conclusion that Both Parties are like the human hand. You vote for the "Palm", you get the Republicans, ... You vote for the back of the hand, you get the Democrats, .... Problem is, ... It remains the hand.

    Neither Party, has lived up to the Principles that this Nation was Founded upon i n the 20th Century onward.

    Neither Party has Attempted to do what Is Honorable, Right, "NORMAL", nor "MORAL", for at least 40 years, .... If they had, ... Abortion, Homosexuality, Un-Declared & Unceasing War, Corporate/ Financial & Political Greed as well as Corruption would be Outlawed.

    Yet the Mushroom like Sheeple keep repetitively Voting in another "Savior", full feeding on the Crap, that it's "Going to Get Better".

    Ya'll, ..... It's a Constantly Looping Song, that produces Nothing But More Grief, More Loss, More Declining & Rotting of What Once Was The Greatest Nation on Earth.

    The Kaka is about halfway up America's Shins right now, ...... And The Physical Evidence of the Kaka "Hitting th' Fan", as well as knocking it down, & burying it, is rapidly building up.

    The "Twitter-in-Chief", the Republicans, nor the Democrats, despite all of their Fancy Words, & Assurances, .... Are Not Going To "Save Us", ... Nor "Make us Great Again!".

    They, hand-in-hand, ... Knowingly allowed & contributed to what has happened to Social Security & Medicare, as well as the Majority of All of the Wrongdoing & Harm caused in & to America.

    In Essence Gentlemen, .... America's Leaders have GANG RAPED America, & The American People, as well as Many Nations of the World.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  11. Likes ga-hvac-tech liked this post.
  12. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    Inflation results when dollars are created without backing. Each new imaginary-dollar dilutes the value of all the previously existing dollars. And as the value of each dollar is correctly perceived to be lower than before - sellers demand more of them for their same goods.

    In 1970 you could buy a nicely equipped Jaguar XKE for $5000. Now the equivalent Jaguar costs about $85,000. That is 17 Times as much.

    Your starting wage in was $1.74 - so why aren't helpers today starting at $30.00 ? That would be about 17 times more than $1.74

    The squeeze on The People has been from both ends - debt based dollars, and the inflation which results from them, has stolen his wealth AND his wages haven't even kept pace with the price inflation.

    PHM
    -------
    YEAH!!!!!

    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  13. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    And thinking of that reminds me of another 'fast food' story. At the time 'my area' was most easily accessed by driving up and down I-295. There was a Burger King right off one of the exits and I very often went there - so that I could save time by eating as I drove to the next job.

    I would often get one of their apple pies with a whopper. And those pies were HOT. And tricky too - because the outside, especially in the winter, would feel cool but the inside part would come out like molten lava.

    Pulling out of this often crowded area was sometimes slow and so I decided that an apple pie was cool enough to start with. I had just pulled out of the BK parking lot and there was a traffic light to stop at. My window was still down and I took a bite of the felt-cool-enough pie and the inside apple goo just burned me. Sucking in air was useless to cool it so to get rid of the searing bastard I turned and spit the pie bite out the window with a huge blast of air. I am raging insane; agitated, screaming like a madman in my Very Big Voice, cursing everything that ever lived, etc.

    Just as I was turning to spit out the pie bite a car was easing to a stop next to my left side in the middle lane and all the spray of partly chewed food blasts all over the passenger's side window. In my raging I don't see that or maybe discount it. So I am still raging and ranting and pissed off and I see the rest of the pie and makes me even madder. Now screaming At the pie I snatch it up and pitch it out the truck window at 100 mph.

    What I didn't know was that the man in the car to my left had taken offense at the gooey food spray spit all over his window and had rolled down his passenger's side window - I imagine to take me to task over it. So once he gets the window down he can see and hear the raging monster that he has to deal with - and maybe he had even said: Excuse me or something to get my attention when my screaming madman rocket grade launching of the pie out my window resulted in it coming in through the window he had just lowered and smashing into him. He could not have looked more astonished - I can still picture his face exactly - but the light changed, I mashed the gas and turned off and down the ramp to the interstate - still screaming. Man I was hot!

    But I am sure that the poor guy had no idea what was going on. He has no inkling that a hot-pie-burn has pushed me over the edge. He's just driving, routinely stops at a light, and somebody spits food all over his window. He puts down the window to inquire about that and sees/hears a maniac screaming and flailing around in his truck. And then just as he speaks, or gets ready to, an apple pie slams into him and the truck takes off like a dragster.

    It was just one of those the-timing-happened-perfectly events. <g>

    I have often wondered if that guy still remembers the incident - still tells the story.


    That Incident would make a Priceless short Video Mikey.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

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  15. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Show us those facts Gary...

    And while you are at it...
    Please explain WHY McDonalds was guilty of punitive damages???
    Quote Originally Posted by garyed View Post
    I don't have the actual transcripts & I have to run out to a job now but here's the first thing that came up on a google search " truth behind Mcdonalds coffee suit " for now:
    https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

    I think you are missing my point Gary...

    GA requested that GARY specifically explain WHY McDonalds was guilty of punitive damages...
    GA is not interested in a link to a court brief...
    GA wants to hear the reasoning directly from Gary... no 'quoting'...
    Why???
    Because if Gary supports the position... then Gary needs to be able to explain WHY Gary supports the position.
    If not... then why does Gary support the position???

    Just the basics of logic and reason and common sense there guy...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

    GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
    *Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
    *The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
    *Cheap is not good, good is not cheap; however expensive is not a guarantee of quality!
    Choose your contractor wisely!

  16. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    I think you are missing my point Gary...

    GA requested that GARY specifically explain WHY McDonalds was guilty of punitive damages...
    GA is not interested in a link to a court brief...
    GA wants to hear the reasoning directly from Gary... no 'quoting'...
    Why???
    Because if Gary supports the position... then Gary needs to be able to explain WHY Gary supports the position.
    If not... then why does Gary support the position???

    Just the basics of logic and reason and common sense there guy...
    The simple explanation is that McDonald's not only knew that their coffee was hotter than recommended temperatures but was also aware of people being burned by it but failed to lower the temperature to a safer level that would not cause as much damage. People make mistakes & that is why there are safety measures taken by businesses & manufacturers to limit the amount of damage in case of human error. If this lady had an expensive dress that was ruined because she spilled coffee on it then there would be absolutely no reason to hold McDonald's culpable because there was nothing that could be proven that they should have done to prevent it. They could however have had their coffee machine turned down to a level that would not scald the human body as bad. She spent a week in the hospital with third degree burns & was scarred for life. From the transcripts I remember reading, they were warned multiple times that the temperature was too hot & dangerous & they failed to take any action. From everything I understand about the case there is no question in my mind that punitive damages were certainly justified. McDonald's failed to act or show any concern to limit injuries due to their hotter than recommended coffee temperature when they were aware of them occurring. Since they had both the knowledge & the opportunity to do so did nothing that is cause for punitive damages.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  17. #78
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    So WHO established what 'normal' temperatures are???

    And WHY would a person be less careful with a cup of coffee that was within the guidelines of specific temperatures... than a cup of coffee that exceeded that guideline???

    HOT coffee is HOT coffee... DUH...
    One should assume ALL HOT coffee is HOT... and treat ALL cups of HOT coffee with the same caution!!!!

    It is called being responsible for ones actions...

    And when a lawyer gets a hefty sum of $$$ for a person who does not take responsibility for their actions...
    That is a breakdown of the morality of our country... which includes the folks on the jury that awarded the $$$!

    Sheesh... you lefties are greedy thief's, hiding behind the arrogance of intellectualism.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

    GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
    *Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
    *The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
    *Cheap is not good, good is not cheap; however expensive is not a guarantee of quality!
    Choose your contractor wisely!

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