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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Houston, Tx
    Posts
    8
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    John,
    What is RSES?

    Honest Charlie,
    We had a guy here claiming to be NEBB certified and lowballing jobs left and right. He ran into one owner that he told his building was balanced but the owner already knew it couldn't be because the RTU was significantly low on air and the VAV boxes didn't have controllers. NEBB forced him out of business shortly after that.
    This is what I like to hear. Sadly this is a problem all over, definitely in the Houston area as well. A recent story includes a NEBB certified firm turning in a report which included documentation to reflect a successfully completed chilled water balance. Only problem was the chilled water piping was being completed the week the report was turned into the owner and the flush was scheduled for the week after! I wonder what gave it away?!

    AABC is no better, many of the major players under AABC certification are well known for pencil whipping.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Louisburg Kansas
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Likes
    I was accused of pencil whipping four times in twenty years. Proving the facilities were balanced was easy but when three of these people wanted a job bid after that I advised them to get an honest balancer because I was too lazy to work and too scared to steal. The other guy was an owner who didn't make the accusation but thoroughly enjoyed watching me destroy the controls contractor that thought he was going to make me the goat. The building was screwed up big time and after I proved it was the controls he stuck them with the bill. He gave me all his work after that.
    TAB contractors that put pressure on employees to cheat usually do it by tracking progress on lobs. They don't tell anyone to cheat but if the jobs lose money that person is not an employee very long. Bid mistakes don't count but job profit does.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Pompano Beach
    Posts
    150
    Post Likes
    National Comfort Institute. Very well led class. Enjoyed it. They train all over the US.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Avon Lake, Ohio
    Posts
    2,910
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by czkidd View Post
    National Comfort Institute. Very well led class. Enjoyed it. They train all over the US.
    This certification is known all over the world. We were the first to offer Balancing to HVAC contractors. Is becoming as acceptable as other balancing certifications. You do have to have experience in commercial air balancing before taking the course. Check our website. www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com.
    captain CO

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Louisburg Kansas
    Posts
    1,553
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    I checked out the website. From what I could tell NEBB and AABC TAB certification requirements are more stringent. Not trying to discredit the organization because there are some real advantages to belonging to NCI. The thing I liked most is technical help anytime it is needed. This appeared to be "help on demand" which for less experienced technicians is at times a game changer. That is not literally available with any other organization that I know of.
    As with other organizations honesty appears to be the responsibility of the contractor and there is probably no other way to handle that.
    The biggest problem with stopping pencil balancing is it can be difficult to impossible to prove and nobody wants to go to the trouble to report it. I balanced a system that pencil balance was easily provable because the cut out in the sheet metal of the main duct for the branch was not made. I encouraged the owners to file a complaint but they wouldn't. They just vowed to never use the guy again. That doesn't stop the problem and seldom punishes the contractor to stop the practice.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    8,183
    Post Likes
    Mechanical contractors have asked me to do something to an installed system. Tweak this or that. When looking at the T&B report there have been times the report had serious mistakes or omissions or bad math.
    Somewhat surprising. NEEB was the accepted standard that the others had to emulate if their reports were going to be accepted. I never agreed with that as I found NEEB to be chicken $hit as far as their requirements went. Way overboard in most all respects. From instrument calibration to having people dedicated to just T&B.
    Here most specs used to call for NEEB only. Over time AABC and TAB have been added to many requirements. I've never seen NCI in a spec here.
    One shop here, IMO, their reports are an embarrassment.

    Stopping pencil balancing is problematic because the reports (mine included) state that due to various things changing like air temp or humidity the numbers might not be able to be duplicated. This is a statement that encourages pencil pushing even though it's true.
    Balancing companies know that even if another company has different results there are arguments that could be made over procedures or instrument calibration.

    Once when I brought up a problem report the MC pointed to the certifacation page and said "This is all I care about." In other words he was going to get paid.
    I should have played the g'tar on the MTV. MK

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Louisburg Kansas
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Likes
    Hvacker,
    Most specifications require balancing by an independent contractor dedicated to TAB but NEBB doesn't. A few years ago NEBB allowed balancers to only be certified in air or water balance but now you have to be certified in both. The biggest problem I ran into as a balance contractor was mechanical contractors lying to me and thinking my contract obligated me to do things their way and they could demand me to balance a system that wasn't ready.
    I had a couple of engineers that thought their interpretation of NEBB overruled NEBB's intent. Not many mechanical contractors can balance their own jobs and most that can find it cheaper to outsource to someone that does it every day. Nobody could put enough pressure on me to get a pencil balance but if I was their employee the pressure could have been high.
    I hate to say it but a lot of MC's and GC's don't care about anything but the certified balance report.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    8,183
    Post Likes
    Most balancing, at least on larger jobs, spec that the T&B be done by an independent certified contractor. I would have a problem on any T&B done by in house people. I know some do if the spec doesn't require an actual certified T&B. I've worked at three shops that have had some instruments and used them to check something or troubleshoot their systems but didn't generate reports.
    Now the snag. A certified T&B shop might not have anyone but grunts doing the actual job but act as a overseer (aka baby sitter) for the report. And if the people on the job don't know the correct procedures, the labor can become a problem.
    But the same problem exists for service shops. Because of my license, I can hire anyone to do the work. At least being Union I know if I call the hall I will get licensed, drug tested, journeymen. That's at least part way there.
    Many shops in the trades seem comfy just billing the customer. Many shops have morphed
    from mechanical shops to offering service when they know diddly about the service work.
    Nice alternative cash flow.
    I should have played the g'tar on the MTV. MK

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

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