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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Andalucia
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    IMO... designing the heating and AC system strictly based on the cheapest energy costs...
    Is a huge mistake!

    Think of some comfort also...

    The main reason my customers buy DF (dual fuel)... is because a HP does not dry out the air as much as a furnace does. The result is you sleep more thoroughly and do not wake up with dry mouth and cracked lips...
    Also the drying out effect can damage wood floors and furniture.

    If folks do not like the cooler heat... they can set the 'cross over' point a little higher. I have some 'Sr' customers with the crossover at 40*...

    Hope this expands ones thinking...
    A 2 pipe system won't dry out that air anymore than a heatpump.
    Benghazi was a 4 year investigation, there were zero indictments. The Clinton emails was a 2 year investigation, there were zero indictments. The Mueller investigation has been 12 months, there have been 23 indictments.

    When 11 American prisoners in North Korea were released during the Obama administration, the President didn’t make it into a spectacle about himself.

    Trump was right Roseanne is about you.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Billington Heights, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    A 2 pipe system won't dry out that air anymore than a heatpump.
    Exactly. A home at 70 on a HP is the same as a home at 70 on a direct vent furnace is the same as a home at 70 on electric heat strips. Gas furnaces DONT add or remove humidity.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    75,660
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    Moved to AOP.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
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    At the rates you posted. A heat pump would only be cheaper while its COP was above 3.71, which would be at outdoor temps above 47°F. So the savings would be small.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    8,459
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    $0.111 / kw-hr Average IN
    $0.091/ Yours

    $0.69 / therm Natural Gas

    What will the rates be in 2028 ?

    ____ There are 1,400 hours < 30'F in Indianapolis.
    1,400 hours out of a total 6,000 hours < 65'F

    https://utilitieslocal.com/states/indiana/indianapolis/

    I would likely use two heat pumps with switchover point set in the 30'F to 40'F range.
    C.O.P. > 3.5

    More specific $$$ and switchover info later.
    2004 built
    R-ceiling .. R-40 or __
    R-walls ... R-13 or R-18?
    Infiltration 0.32 Air Change per Hour (A.C.H.)

    Windows: U-factor 0.40 or 0.24 ?
    ------ Total glass area ~400 sq feet
    __________________________

    Heating Degree Days : 5,200
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    8,459
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    ... Comfort + Initial Cost + Operating Cost Balance ...

    80% EFFICIENT FURNACE 60,000 BTU/HR FURNACE
    switchover at ~30'F

    4 TON OR TWO 2 TON HEAT PUMPS

    ATTACHMENT
    _______ MY CALC 2800 SQ FT 2 STORY ...
    ... With Basement
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    38,164
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    Exactly. A home at 70 on a HP is the same as a home at 70 on a direct vent furnace is the same as a home at 70 on electric heat strips. Gas furnaces DONT add or remove humidity.
    We have installed dozens and dozens of DF systems...
    The customers say they really like the LESS DRY feel of the HP heat.

    Wonder how that happens???
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Andalucia
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    We have installed dozens and dozens of DF systems...
    The customers say they really like the LESS DRY feel of the HP heat.

    Wonder how that happens???
    You are talking about "feeling" rather than what actually is.

    Maybe you are not installing direct vent systems with your DF setups.
    Maybe you are talking to people where you removed an atmospheric furnace and replaced it with a heatpump.
    Maybe the furnace is running at the coldest driest times and the HP is running on warmer cloudier relatively more humid days.
    Maybe they are being swayed by what they are being told by somebody.
    Benghazi was a 4 year investigation, there were zero indictments. The Clinton emails was a 2 year investigation, there were zero indictments. The Mueller investigation has been 12 months, there have been 23 indictments.

    When 11 American prisoners in North Korea were released during the Obama administration, the President didn’t make it into a spectacle about himself.

    Trump was right Roseanne is about you.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Billington Heights, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    We have installed dozens and dozens of DF systems...
    The customers say they really like the LESS DRY feel of the HP heat.

    Wonder how that happens???
    Feeling is subjective. If the air is slower and the heat is less... or faster and less...or whatever.. assuming that nothing else has changed, the air temp set pt. and RH is the same.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    Feeling is subjective. If the air is slower and the heat is less... or faster and less...or whatever.. assuming that nothing else has changed, the air temp set pt. and RH is the same.
    Tell that to the customer...

    They want it to feel right...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Billington Heights, NY
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    I dont deal in feelings. I deal in data.

    The thermostat doesnt say "feels bad", "feels right", "feels bad". it has numbers and data.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    38,164
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    I dont deal in feelings. I deal in data.

    The thermostat doesnt say "feels bad", "feels right", "feels bad". it has numbers and data.
    Good for you... that you are not trying to do business down here...
    As customers believe they have the right to believe what they want to...
    Including their feelings...

    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

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