convert geo to air ?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I have a long time customer. High acid well water is all he has for the geo units. Most often the failures have been heat exchangers failing due to the water. He refuses to treat anything but the domestic use water for acid.

The crawlspace unit isn't so much a problem but the attic unit has failed twice and flooded the house. No wait; only one was a HX failure - the other was a polybutylene tubing failure.

The present attic unit is 15 years old and fortunately the latest HX failure was in - flooded the compressor and not the house.

I would prefer to replace with air cooled and reduce the customer's risk.

His question is: what air cooled HP's efficiency rating would most closely duplicate the efficiency / cost of operation of the geo system?

So that is my question too. <g>

[rjk_cmh]

The only thing that comes remotely close to open loop geo in terms of efficiency is ductless inverter. Unless you want to hook his geo units up to a cooling tower instead, but then you still need water treatment.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Sure; but the point is to get the water out of his second floor attic. The last time it leaked the repair cost was over $100K <g>

PHM
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The only thing that comes remotely close to open loop geo in terms of efficiency is ductless inverter. Unless you want to hook his geo units up to a cooling tower instead, but then you still need water treatment.

[rjk_cmh]

Another option would be to use a water-cooled condensing unit in the basement or crawlspace, and pipe the refrigerant up to the attic, if he wants to keep the geothermal aspect. Like so: https://www.carrier.com/residential/...heat-pumps/gz/ or perhaps https://www.bosch-climate.us/product...del-split.html
It seems odd that he wouldn't want to treat the water, and instead spend big bucks on HX replacements every several years.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Thanks! That is an excellent idea!

And, except for the added cost of a lineset, the equipment costs are about the same.

PHM
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Another option would be to use a water-cooled condensing unit in the basement or crawlspace, and pipe the refrigerant up to the attic, if he wants to keep the geothermal aspect. Like so: https://www.carrier.com/residential/...heat-pumps/gz/ or perhaps https://www.bosch-climate.us/product...del-split.html
It seems odd that he wouldn't want to treat the water, and instead spend big bucks on HX replacements every several years.

[pecmsg]

Can you hook up a Heat Pump condensing unit outside? Forget SEER ratings they wont apply.

[DewMac]

Have you thought about adding a small flat plate heat exchanger. The heat exchangers are typically made out of 316 stainless steel so the acidic water should not affect the integrity of the heat exchanger. Then all you would need is a small Taco or B&G circulating pump for the secondary side. Just a thought...

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I have to consider that this entire job will be done with me working though someone else's hands. <g> My associate is not me - and apparently does not want to become me.

I love your idea and would happily use it - but anything out of the ordinary makes my associate get 'deer in the headlights' look on his face. Hell; just the idea of replacing a geo unit has him pretty freaked out. <g>

And besides: don't the geo makers generally use what used to be called 'marine grade' heat exchangers these days?

PHM
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Have you thought about adding a small flat plate heat exchanger. The heat exchangers are typically made out of 316 stainless steel so the acidic water should not affect the integrity of the heat exchanger. Then all you would need is a small Taco or B&G circulating pump for the secondary side. Just a thought...

[DewMac]

Now you got me curious about marine grade HEX. You mentioned that the HEX failed, what was the HEX made of and was that marine grade ?

[rjk_cmh]

I assume "marine grade" might be titanium, or maybe cupro-nickel, both of which would usually be an upgrade option over the factory stainless or copper options. Some might include it by default, don't know for sure though.

[micdundee]

considering the amount of possible future damage, closed loop, if he wants high efficiency!
Got to spend some money somewhere !!!

[shellkamp]

The guy who just paid 100k in water damage is worried about the efficiency disparity between geothermal and air source heat pumps? :grin:

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[rjk_cmh]

The guy who just paid 100k in water damage is worried about the efficiency disparity between geothermal and air source heat pumps? :grin:

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Correction, the guy who's insurance most likely paid for the damage...

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I wish I knew.

I install the now-failed FHP unit about 15 years ago. In about the same time frame I remember some long talks with FHP Sales and with FHP Engineering about this exact issue.

Because I replaced the previous unit due to a failed HX. <g>

Way-back-when the "marine grade" HX's (which I think were cupronickel) were an option on FHP units. But apparently contractors did not often choose the option because it increased their equipment cost - so FHP decided to make All their units with the better HX to better serve their reputation and warranty costs.

And there is said to be no M/S # on the unit - so I can't check that way either.

PHM
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Now you got me curious about marine grade HEX. You mentioned that the HEX failed, what was the HEX made of and was that marine grade ?

[Core_d]

What would the seer rating be for an older geo unit? 20-24 seer? He could get atleast 19seer with air to air


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