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  1. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Paul's writings must be scrutinized because they are from the mind of a mere mortal who must adjust his thoughts according to the audience he was addressing. Paul, a devout Jew, wrote to the Hebrews in a very different way than he wrote to Greek and Roman saints (followers of Christ) who had bee Pagans. Paul was not like Jesus Christ in the fact that Paul was more prone to human flaws.
    It seems that would negate the entire Bible since all of it was written by men.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

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  3. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    It seems that would negate the entire Bible since all of it was written by men.
    It would also negate any opinion on the Bible, since any opinion given is from 'flawed man'.

  4. #627
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    I didn't say Paul's writtings can't be trusted. I said that Paul's writtings need to be scrutinized better for the specific audiences that Paul was addressing because Paul's writtings may or may not apply to all people. The teachings of Jesus are universal to all of mankind, Paul is addressing specific issues with specific types of people in each of his letters.
    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    But isn't that incongruent reasoning? Can a 'mere mortal' make a judgement call on what is or isn't correct from the writings of another 'mere mortal'? If something is not to be trusted because it comes from 'fallible man', who makes that judgement call? Fallible man?
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  5. #628
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    Not at all. Read my response to Vin. Paul's writtings are very different than those of prophets, especially Jesus Christ. Paul is an example of second generation teachings of Jesus's teachings for specific types of peoples. I believe that is deliberate for the authority of the New Testament, showing that we can move forward with the teachings of Jesus Christ through others as the teachings apply to a variety of cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    It seems that would negate the entire Bible since all of it was written by men.
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  6. #629
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    What "opinions" are given in scripture that do not come from God through prophets? Even Paul is using scripture and the teachings of Jesus when he addresses specific audiences. Let's face it, Pagan Romans are going to need different teachings from Christ than Pagan Greeks are and Jews/Hebrews are going to need the teachings to be completely different from any other faith base. Through his epistles, Paul teaches us by example ways to relate Jesus's teachings to a variety of different cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    It would also negate any opinion on the Bible, since any opinion given is from 'flawed man'.
    Training is important!
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  7. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    What's the difference if we rest on Saturday, Friday evening till Saturday at dusk or Sunday? As long as we rest on the seventh day after working for six; who cares what we call that day? Doesn't it seem that the point is for us to take a break in our work every six days more than quible about what day we are going to designate to rest?
    I have to disagree Robo. The difference is the Sabbath was set aside by God to be Holy. It is also one of the commandments "REMEMBER and keep it Holy". God didn't say pick any day you want and we'll make it work. He said this is my Sabbath keep it for all generations.

    Is see it as you boss setting the hours of operation for his business and you wanting to work your own hours. What difference does it make if you don't show up when the rest of the crew is there to work? What difference does it make that you aren't there for the weekly meeting where the boss hands out training or instructions on how things should be done. If it doesn't work for business, how can it work for your relationship with God.

    Please don't get me wrong, I struggle and fail at this constantly. I see a lot of my problem comes form a habit of church on Sunday, then looking at how Ceaser and other leaders have changed dates from time to time, thought who knows when the Sabbath actually is. Then I heard a preacher talking about this and he said yes the dates changed but the Sunday through Saturday sequence has never changed or been adjusted, it just went form Friday the 3rd to Saturday the 7 for example.

    As I see it, making time in a busy schedule for God is a good thing, but making time for God on his time is a better one. The one way we want God to submit to our will, the other we are submitting to God's will. Isn't that what's most important. It is kinda like the theater opens a 6:30 and the movie starts at 7:00 but we are too busy to make it so we try and declare that the movie should start at 8:30. So what if everyone shared that attitude, the movie would never start.

  8. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I didn't say Paul's writtings can't be trusted. I said that Paul's writtings need to be scrutinized better for the specific audiences that Paul was addressing because Paul's writtings may or may not apply to all people. The teachings of Jesus are universal to all of mankind, Paul is addressing specific issues with specific types of people in each of his letters.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Paul's writings must be scrutinized because they are from the mind of a mere mortal
    I was addressing the bolded comment, which seems to suggest that you believe that the NT is merely men's writing, rather than Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. Do I misunderstand?
    Last edited by vin lashon; 06-24-2019 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Formatting

  9. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I said that Paul's writings need to be scrutinized better for the specific audiences that Paul was addressing because Paul's writings may or may not apply to all people. The teachings of Jesus are universal to all of mankind, Paul is addressing specific issues with specific types of people in each of his letters.
    Robin, you ok Buddy?

    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". -Vernon Law-

    "Skilled Labor Isn't Cheap, Cheap Labor Isn't Skilled" - Unknown

    "When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble".

  10. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by todd.dewulf View Post
    Just trying to keep it simple. If we can get these two things down we got all the rest down too. It’s an everyday thing where we must allow the fruit of the Spirit, love, flow through us, because we are incapable of it. A lesson in humility I have to re- learn everyday. The definition of love I try to live by is a sacrificial giving of oneself for the benefit of others without thought of return. So in other words it’s not me loving others it’s God loving others through me. We can sometimes get bogged down with over 600 things when it all boils down to loving God and loving people.



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    Amen todd!

    In My Belief, "Boiled Down" to it's finest essence,.... Love is The Eternal Law.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  11. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    Paul's writings are questionable?
    From what I've studied, Yes Vin.

    Paul has contradicted himself, & Luke, who wasn't an Apostle, & Luke contradicted Paul.

    In Hebrews 9: Paul even screwed up the contents of the Ark vs. what the Torah, & other Writers specifically stated about what was contained in it.

    I got to the point, where after about a year & a half of studying Paul's writings, that I decided that where Paul agreed with the Teachings of The Messiah, Apostles, Prophets, & Torah, that I Accepted those Writings, but, .... Where he contradicts those that Taught of The Way, especially The Messiah,& he contradicted The Prophets, when The Messiah upheld them, ... I reject Paul.

    Paul was a "rising star" of the Pharisees,... meaning those that upheld the "Oral Law"/ "Traditions".

    That "Oral Law", after Rome destroyed the second temple, & slaughtered the majority of the Levites, & savagely put down the Rebellion of 130 A.D., became what is now known as The Talmud.

    It Amazed me that when the N.T. was "Canonized" by Anathisius & Jerome, that such a heavy emphasis was placed on Paul, & after a geat deal of Studying the History of how the Bible came about, I then learned that the "Talmudic Jews" Canonized the Tanach/ O.T., & while completing that "Canonization" they rejected many Scrolls, including Enoch, Yasher, The Macabees, & more, due to the fact, In My Belief, that those Scrolls expose how they have corrupted The Way.

    The Catholics also rejected more than 50 Scrolls, Books & Letters, that were accepted & cherished by Believers of The Way, ... Again, as a means to not be exposed.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  12. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDeBord View Post
    From what I've studied, Yes Vin.

    Paul has contradicted himself, & Luke, who wasn't an Apostle, & Luke contradicted Paul.

    In Hebrews 9: Paul even screwed up the contents of the Ark vs. what the Torah, & other Writers specifically stated about what was contained in it.

    I got to the point, where after about a year & a half of studying Paul's writings, that I decided that where Paul agreed with the Teachings of The Messiah, Apostles, Prophets, & Torah, that I Accepted those Writings, but, .... Where he contradicts those that Taught of The Way, especially The Messiah,& he contradicted The Prophets, when The Messiah upheld them, ... I reject Paul.

    Paul was a "rising star" of the Pharisees,... meaning those that upheld the "Oral Law"/ "Traditions".

    That "Oral Law", after Rome destroyed the second temple, & slaughtered the majority of the Levites, & savagely put down the Rebellion of 130 A.D., became what is now known as The Talmud.

    It Amazed me that when the N.T. was "Canonized" by Anathisius & Jerome, that such a heavy emphasis was placed on Paul, & after a geat deal of Studying the History of how the Bible came about, I then learned that the "Talmudic Jews" Canonized the Tanach/ O.T., & while completing that "Canonization" they rejected many Scrolls, including Enoch, Yasher, The Macabees, & more, due to the fact, In My Belief, that those Scrolls expose how they have corrupted The Way.

    The Catholics also rejected more than 50 Scrolls, Books & Letters, that were accepted & cherished by Believers of The Way, ... Again, as a means to not be exposed.
    If you reject Paul, you reject almost the entire NT. Is it your contention that God is so powerless? That, even though He wants us to know Him, He couldn't manage to keep His Word intact...that He has allowed "Paul's error" to proliferate and deceive people down through the ages?

  13. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    If you reject Paul, you reject almost the entire NT. Is it your contention that God is so powerless? That, even though He wants us to know Him, He couldn't manage to keep His Word intact...that He has allowed "Paul's error" to proliferate and deceive people down through the ages?
    ​I'm surely not the Bible scholar here, but I believe we are speaking of two different covenants, both of which are still valid.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". -Vernon Law-

    "Skilled Labor Isn't Cheap, Cheap Labor Isn't Skilled" - Unknown

    "When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble".

  14. #637
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    Your logic is sound, but keep in mind that many full days have been rearranged over the centuries so that there is no way for anyone to know exactly which day today is the same day from 2,000 years ago. We tend to get so lost in wanting to be sure about the details of scripture that we lose sight of the intent of scripture. Humans, being made in the spiritual image of God, need to have a day of rest every so many days to reflect on our existance, both physically and spiritually. It's not just a matter of picking and choosing any day as a day of rest; we can't possibly know what day it really is compared to days long past.
    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    I have to disagree Robo. The difference is the Sabbath was set aside by God to be Holy. It is also one of the commandments "REMEMBER and keep it Holy". God didn't say pick any day you want and we'll make it work. He said this is my Sabbath keep it for all generations.

    Is see it as you boss setting the hours of operation for his business and you wanting to work your own hours. What difference does it make if you don't show up when the rest of the crew is there to work? What difference does it make that you aren't there for the weekly meeting where the boss hands out training or instructions on how things should be done. If it doesn't work for business, how can it work for your relationship with God.

    Please don't get me wrong, I struggle and fail at this constantly. I see a lot of my problem comes form a habit of church on Sunday, then looking at how Ceaser and other leaders have changed dates from time to time, thought who knows when the Sabbath actually is. Then I heard a preacher talking about this and he said yes the dates changed but the Sunday through Saturday sequence has never changed or been adjusted, it just went form Friday the 3rd to Saturday the 7 for example.

    As I see it, making time in a busy schedule for God is a good thing, but making time for God on his time is a better one. The one way we want God to submit to our will, the other we are submitting to God's will. Isn't that what's most important. It is kinda like the theater opens a 6:30 and the movie starts at 7:00 but we are too busy to make it so we try and declare that the movie should start at 8:30. So what if everyone shared that attitude, the movie would never start.
    Training is important!
    Practical Training is a must!

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