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  1. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Site the specific passages that you believe clearly state that God hates homosexuallity and let's discuss them. I have been over this subject many times, and there is no passages that specifically state that the love of one man for another, even with physical behavior other than sodomy, is against the will of God without the reader adding what they believe must be the intent. Sodomy, whether for a man or a woman, is the taboo.
    There is no doubt that marriage is between a man and a woman only. That doesn't mean that a couple of guys can't be intimate partners in a social sense. I have really tried to pin this one down so I could state emphatically, as you are doing, that homosexuallity is against the will of God; but I have not been successful. It's just not there.
    There are several. Sexual sin is discussed throughout the Bible, and not just homosexuality.

    I'll list some scriptures, but won't have time to get further into discussion tonight.

    Also, I'd like to clarify that this is not about hating homosexuals. That should never be the case. Nor is it proper that one denies what is scriptural, i.e., calling evil good and good evil. And by this, I mean denying something is sin when the Bible states it is. This is and should be nothing more than calling a spade a spade.

    Here are a few. Probably not exhaustive:

    Rom 1:26-29

    Jude 1:7-8

    1 Tim 1:9-11

    1 Cor 6:9-11

    Lev 18:22

    Also, these are passages that specifically mention homosexuality. There are many more pertaining to lust, sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, marriage between one man and one woman and more. Since H.S. is sex outside of marriage (and marriage is defined as between one man and one woman), these (unlisted) scriptures apply as well.

    One really has to work hard (in denial) to believe that homosexuality or anything having to do with sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman is anything but what the Bible explicitly says it is.

  2. #574
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    One thing I think we all should focus on is what Mad mentioned about Jesus being a radical who redefined a lot of what was done in the OT. This is why the book is called The New Testament. Jesus, being God incarnate spiritually, lived the life of the very man that God the Father had made the Abrahamic Covenant with. Through the man Jesus, God the Father better understood His creation of man. With His better understanding of mankind, God made a new covenant with all of mankind, not just the Hebrews/Jews, but every male and female on Earth and beyond. The New Covenant is simply to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and to love one another as Jesus loves us. In other words; all of mankind has the choice to be one with God the Father after our mortal bodies fail. Most of the rest of the stuff is teachings on how to live better lives by abiding by the will of God the best we can.
    We cannot abuse the OT by making claims that God is still thinking OT ways because we have the NT to teach us what the Hebrews/Jews were supposed to learn from the OT, but didn't.
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  3. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Why not? It seems like a reasonable story to prove loyalty and devotion.
    It could do that just as well if it were just a myth.

    Unfortunately, most people (not you RoBo) incorrectly understand and use the word myth. A myth is not a lie or an old wives tale. It is an ambitious fiction that explores essential human problems/themes, and reveals truths about them.

    The big problem with The Bible is that within it, myth and history become terribly and hopelessly conflated.

  4. #576
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    I’m going to put in a call to the big guy, and see if he can help me understand some of the scriptures he inspired. Especially this one:

    16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


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  6. #577
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    There is a problem with any translation using the term "homosexual". The word "homosexual" did not exist prior to the 19th Century, so it is a mis-translation where ever it is used. The actual best translations of the ancient writings of scripture to English would make any reference to homosexual actually be either "Sodomite" or some other term having to do with the act of sodomy.

    Also, when we look at the author of the passages that refer to sodomy, we see that most were by Paul, not Jesus, and most were to churches that were in cities that pretty well resembled Sodom and Gomorah. Especially the Pagan Greek and Roman port cities were pretty well out there when it came to sexual freedom and depravity, much of which came from the Pagan Temples. Paul needed to be a bit of a hard ass with the Corinthians especially.

    But the fact is that homosexuallity was not even a concept in those ancient times. The specific act of sodomy was a problem, not only between men but also with a man and a woman. Especially Greek and Roman soldiers were encouraged to relieve one another sexually without sodomy in order to keep them from being distracted by a desire for women. History tells us that didn't work out very well for Marc Antony, now did it?
    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    There are several. Sexual sin is discussed throughout the Bible, and not just homosexuality.

    I'll list some scriptures, but won't have time to get further into discussion tonight.

    Also, I'd like to clarify that this is not about hating homosexuals. That should never be the case. Nor is it proper that one denies what is scriptural, i.e., calling evil good and good evil. And by this, I mean denying something is sin when the Bible states it is. This is and should be nothing more than calling a spade a spade.

    Here are a few. Probably not exhaustive:

    Rom 1:26-29

    Jude 1:7-8

    1 Tim 1:9-11

    1 Cor 6:9-11

    Lev 18:22

    Also, these are passages that specifically mention homosexuality. There are many more pertaining to lust, sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, marriage between one man and one woman and more. Since H.S. is sex outside of marriage (and marriage is defined as between one man and one woman), these (unlisted) scriptures apply as well.

    One really has to work hard (in denial) to believe that homosexuality or anything having to do with sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman is anything but what the Bible explicitly says it is.
    Training is important!
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  7. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    What I am about to say, vin, is in all seriousness, so please don't take anything of it as frivolity or disrespect.

    Do you realize how strange it sounds to hear a conservative person getting excited about receiving a 'freebie'? I mean, the whole basis of your collective political and economic philosophy is that everyone should have to work for his keep and pay his own way, with minimal government involvement, right? Sorry, man...call me a bit conservative, but I can't abide by the kind of spiritual nanny state you all embrace. On the contrary, my sins have been paid for, and will continue to be paid for, by my efforts...by my suffering. Whether I like it or not. That's just the way it is on planet earth. In mortal terms, we are all living on borrowed time, and every single last one of us must ultimately give it back.
    LOL...yes, that's the human way. But, when it comes to a relationship with God, works don't cut it. I thiink a good way to put it is this:

    "Our relationship with God isn't a symptom of our works, our works are a symptom of our relationship with God".


    Again, no disrespect to you, but I don't care a lick when I hear your prophets compare man's works to rags. When a man gives his heart and soul to another person, or to a cause greater than himself, and certainly when he lays down literally his own life for something noble or sacred, then I can say beyond doubt, that man becomes blessed in the eyes of God...for the very reason that he has tapped into the nature of God's grace and God's compassion. And even if I am wrong, and eternal torments are indeed what await me when I called from this earth, then I will use the memories of all the great human works I will have witnessed in my life to stiffen my endurance of my agony.



    My conviction is that God hates nothing (I'm using 'hate' here because you used that word in a recent post). If anything, God feels compassion when we sin.



    You already know my position on this: God doesn't have an only-begotten son. Therefore, He could not have sent him to die on the mission described in the NT.

    Vin wrote: "I sense that you believe that the search goes on, and that death does not close the door of 'opportunity'?"

    MM wrote: I leave the door open on that one because it seems both counter-intuitive and unreasonable to imagine an abrupt and final extinguishment of a consciousness.

    By my question, I wasn't referring to a "final extinguishment", I was referring to the opportunity to change the decisions you made during life. Once physical death occurs, we are immediately standing before God, and the decision we made concerning him and Christ is what we are stuck with.

    MM, I respect your right to believe what you will, but there's not really a lot of depth you and I can achieve in this type of discussion since you don't have a solid standard of Truth. There's no where to meet in the middle. I don't consider this a problem (for me, that is ), and we have many other debates that I enjoy. But I know you understand that we are limited by this chasm in beliefs.

  8. #579
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    1Corinthians6:9
    -
    10
    Young's
    LiteralTranslation
    (YLT)
    9
    have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
    10
    nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.

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  9. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    There is a problem with any translation using the term "homosexual". The word "homosexual" did not exist prior to the 19th Century, so it is a mis-translation where ever it is used. The actual best translations of the ancient writings of scripture to English would make any reference to homosexual actually be either "Sodomite" or some other term having to do with the act of sodomy.

    Also, when we look at the author of the passages that refer to sodomy, we see that most were by Paul, not Jesus, and most were to churches that were in cities that pretty well resembled Sodom and Gomorah. Especially the Pagan Greek and Roman port cities were pretty well out there when it came to sexual freedom and depravity, much of which came from the Pagan Temples. Paul needed to be a bit of a hard ass with the Corinthians especially.

    But the fact is that homosexuallity was not even a concept in those ancient times. The specific act of sodomy was a problem, not only between men but also with a man and a woman. Especially Greek and Roman soldiers were encouraged to relieve one another sexually without sodomy in order to keep them from being distracted by a desire for women. History tells us that didn't work out very well for Marc Antony, now did it?
    Paul did use the term arsenokoitai (αρσενοκοίται) which means something along the lines of (he who) lies in bed with men.

    My key response to vin, however, would be that Jesus himself never addressed the issue of homosexuality specifically (at least in the biographies of him we have). Furthermore, I argue that if homosexuality were such a big, scary problem, you'd imagine the greatest moral teacher would have mentioned it in particular, at least on one occasion, right?

  10. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    There is a problem with any translation using the term "homosexual". The word "homosexual" did not exist prior to the 19th Century, so it is a mis-translation where ever it is used. The actual best translations of the ancient writings of scripture to English would make any reference to homosexual actually be either "Sodomite" or some other term having to do with the act of sodomy.

    Also, when we look at the author of the passages that refer to sodomy, we see that most were by Paul, not Jesus, and most were to churches that were in cities that pretty well resembled Sodom and Gomorah. Especially the Pagan Greek and Roman port cities were pretty well out there when it came to sexual freedom and depravity, much of which came from the Pagan Temples. Paul needed to be a bit of a hard ass with the Corinthians especially.

    But the fact is that homosexuallity was not even a concept in those ancient times. The specific act of sodomy was a problem, not only between men but also with a man and a woman. Especially Greek and Roman soldiers were encouraged to relieve one another sexually without sodomy in order to keep them from being distracted by a desire for women. History tells us that didn't work out very well for Marc Antony, now did it?
    RoBo, It's very difficult to misinterpret the Bible's intent on this matter. Even if you doubt the direct mentions, the related scriptures cover it. Sexual immorality, lust, sex outside of marriage (as defined in the bible, not obama), and more directly, men committing shameful acts, exchanging the natural for the unnatural, men inflamed with lust for one another.

    And yes, many of these passages were written by Paul, but it comes down to this: Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or do you not? If you do, it's clear what is meant. If you don't, you will interpret it as you will. I hope you don't think my comments disrespectful. I'm a 'it is what it is' kind of guy and it's manifested in bluntness.

    Rom 1:26-28:
    26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

  11. #582
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    I agree that same sex relationships were not a big deal at all as long as there was no sodomy involved. Same sex relations between both men and women were encouraged for various reasons. Sex between a man and a woman was more for procreation than for lustful fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    Paul did use the term arsenokoitai (αρσενοκοίται) which means something along the lines of (he who) lies in bed with men.

    My key response to vin, however, would be that Jesus himself never addressed the issue of homosexuality specifically (at least in the biographies of him we have). Furthermore, I argue that if homosexuality were such a big, scary problem, you'd imagine the greatest moral teacher would have mentioned it in particular, at least on one occasion, right?
    Training is important!
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  12. #583
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    Sorry. What you are seeing just isn't actually there. You are seeing what you want the passages to state, but they don't actually specify homosexuallity. During these times when birth control was a lot more difficult, men and women more commonly satisfied basic sexual urges with one another. It just wasn't a big deal for two guys or two girls to get each other off in those times.
    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    RoBo, It's very difficult to misinterpret the Bible's intent on this matter. Even if you doubt the direct mentions, the related scriptures cover it. Sexual immorality, lust, sex outside of marriage (as defined in the bible, not obama), and more directly, men committing shameful acts, exchanging the natural for the unnatural, men inflamed with lust for one another.

    And yes, many of these passages were written by Paul, but it comes down to this: Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or do you not? If you do, it's clear what is meant. If you don't, you will interpret it as you will. I hope you don't think my comments disrespectful. I'm a 'it is what it is' kind of guy and it's manifested in bluntness.

    Rom 1:26-28:
    26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    Training is important!
    Practical Training is a must!

  13. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Sorry. What you are seeing just isn't actually there. You are seeing what you want the passages to state, but they don't actually specify homosexuallity. During these times when birth control was a lot more difficult, men and women more commonly satisfied basic sexual urges with one another. It just wasn't a big deal for two guys or two girls to get each other off in those times.
    I understand. We can disagree on the issue. Ask MM. He's used to being disagreed with.

  14. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    LOL...yes, that's the human way. But, when it comes to a relationship with God, works don't cut it. I thiink a good way to put it is this:

    "Our relationship with God isn't a symptom of our works, our works are a symptom of our relationship with God".

    By my question, I wasn't referring to a "final extinguishment", I was referring to the opportunity to change the decisions you made during life. Once physical death occurs, we are immediately standing before God, and the decision we made concerning him and Christ is what we are stuck with.

    MM, I respect your right to believe what you will, but there's not really a lot of depth you and I can achieve in this type of discussion since you don't have a solid standard of Truth. There's no where to meet in the middle. I don't consider this a problem (for me, that is ), and we have many other debates that I enjoy. But I know you understand that we are limited by this chasm in beliefs.
    Not a problem, vin, but you should know that my version of god also directs me to spread an alternative Good News and to make many converts...the more intransigent, the better! LOL...just kidding.

    To my mind, it's interesting that you always claim solidity, some sturdy foundation or the like, when in fact all you have are words: promises, prophecies, and pronouncements. And metaphorically speaking, I don't see a chasm between us, I see a difference of altitude between us: I am Daedalus and you are Icarus as we attempt to escape our own analogue to Crete. And as the story goes, Icarus foolishly desired to fly closer to the sun (representation of the divine) which would ultimately melt the wax in his wings, leading to a terrible fall.

    I don't know about you, but I don't consider any of this a waste of time. If anything, I think both of us will be better for it afterwards. Even if both of our convictions remain essentially the same as before we started, we will have grown at least in our ability to articulate what we believe, and more importantly, to consider the occasional new angle or perspective.

    Last thing, I wonder why not one of you guys has accepted my challenge to reconcile Jesus' teachings on love and mercy with the OT widely called-for commandment to kill for having broken the old school laws.

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