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  1. #586
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    LOL! So am I. While I agree that I am steadfast to not add any of my own emotion to scripture, I also understand that some assumptions of intent of scripture could be correct. I just don't want to take any chances of speaking for God out of turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    I understand. We can disagree on the issue. Ask MM. He's used to being disagreed with.
    Training is important!
    Practical Training is a must!

  2. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    I understand. We can disagree on the issue. Ask MM. He's used to being disagreed with.
    Then I consider myself in good company, as Jesus himself elicited much disagreement. Heck, the poor guy was strung up just for uttering controversial ideas.

  3. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    Not a problem, vin, but you should know that my version of god also directs me to spread an alternative Good News and to make many converts...the more intransigent, the better! LOL...just kidding.

    To my mind, it's interesting that you always claim solidity, some sturdy foundation or the like, when in fact all you have are words: promises, prophecies, and pronouncements. And metaphorically speaking, I don't see a chasm between us, I see a difference of altitude between us: I am Daedalus and you are Icarus as we attempt to escape our own analogue to Crete. And as the story goes, Icarus foolishly desired to fly closer to the sun (representation of the divine) which would ultimately melt the wax in his wings, leading to a terrible fall.

    I don't know about you, but I don't consider any of this a waste of time. If anything, I think both of us will be better for it afterwards. Even if both of our convictions remain essentially the same as before we started, we will have grown at least in our ability to articulate what we believe, and more importantly, to consider the occasional new angle or perspective.

    Last thing, I wonder why not one of you guys has accepted my challenge to reconcile Jesus' teachings on love and mercy with the OT widely called-for commandment to kill for having broken the old school laws.
    Well said, and exactly right. As to the challenge, you know that Jesus' teachings on love and mercy were based on the OT 'greatest commandment'. And the one fact that you're leaving out of the mix (as many do) is that one of the most prominent attributes of God's nature is his Holiness. In the OT, they lived under the Law. Since the death of Christ, we now live in the age of grace. So, while we may not understand some of these 'issues' or how to reconcile them, this fact (His Holiness) goes a long way. I can't answer all of the questions you have, but I do know the nature of God. Merciful, loving, forgiving and patient toward those who are His. And Holy. How could we ever hope to stand before Him without Grace? And , if His Holiness 'meant enough' that it would cause Him to slay those peoples you speak of, if His Holiness required that the only way He could extend His forgiveness to us and reconcile us to Him was to have His Son pay the price, how can we begin to understand such an awesome being? We learn what we can from the scriptures and from our Relationship with Him, but how can we possibly know Him and of Him in entirety? Simply put, all of our questions won't get answered.

  4. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    I know because I have the Bible as my standard of Truth. Hebrews 9:27 states: "...it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement.". When I said death is the "final chapter", I was referring to 'the search'. If one hasn't found the Truth by then, there is no more opportunity.
    Yea a book written by man, like so many other books that make claims.

    Why don't you seek out persons who been there and came back.

    Maybe you'll find some reality.

    Roy
    A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
    Lysander Spooner

  5. #590
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    Okay, everybody...time for an update.

    To answer DavidDeBord's original question, here is some evidence of what Christianity is doing today:



    Go to the 1:24 time mark where the woman recording begins to implore God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to rebuke Satan and his attending band of quarrelsome demons, and to send a squad of angels to intervene in the melee. Noteworthy, however, is the fact that all supernatural parties in attendance are wearing invisibility cloaks.

  6. #591
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    Ok Mad, here are my thoughts on the reconciliation you ask about.

    My thought is you are not seeing the real spirit of Jesus the Christ but what the writer of the NT saw. Forgive me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you see Jesus and a hippie pacifist, I see him as a bad ass biker.

    I can't quote scripture like others so maybe some can help out with that but Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not do away with it. So he did not change the law or any intent included in it but more so show how it was being misinterpreted. For example the story of Jesus saving the woman from being stoned. Most read that as a pacifist pardoning the woman, that is not how I see it.

    Imagine an angry mob, rocks in hand, maybe 50 -100 in number. Jesus walked through them calmly, said the famous "He who is without sin cast the first stone" then took the woman and walked out with her. Somehow I can see a flash of fire in his eyes as he said this. A fire kindled deeply from within. He didn't pardon her sin. He was saying that the sin of the rest were just as great or greater than her's. We have to remember many of these in the mob were most likely of the Pharisees or Sadducees who were highly legalistic, which Jesus had many confrontations with as they were misapplying the law.

    Then there was the event where he cleared the temple of the money changers. He turned over tables and used the cord of his robe as a whip. Doesn't sound very pacifistic to to me.

    I think much of the problem come from the writers. There were expecting the Messiah to be a warrior and he was on occasion. They didn't understand that it was not his time to be a warrior , yet. He was sent at this time to be the sacrificial lamb, the ultimate offering. Remember he said you don't take my life, I lay it down freely. It is kinda like in the movies when the hero lays down his weapon to protect the innocent. When he comes again will be the time of the warrior.

    I don't know if I explained what you were looking for, I hope it made some sense. I can't say as I fully understand myself. I see Jesus as controlling the rage burning inside for all the wrong he saw going on. i believe he put on the facade of a pacifist to avoid physical confrontation which would have hampered his reason for coming.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    Yea a book written by man, like so many other books that make claims.
    Roy, I haven't been in ARP long enough to know some of you, are you a believer? Yes the Bible was written by man, I don't think a spiritual being could hold a pencil or pen to write anything. So are saying you don't believe someone could be inspired to write something? Inspiration for us to want to do most anything has to come from somewhere, I guess it could come from our own minds and hearts, but I also believe it can come from God. I've always believed in God, so yes, I'm bias here, but I've also read and studied and watched many different things related to the earth and its design. I use this example, there is no way, you could take a concrete bolder 20'x20' stick a stick of dynamite under it, and blow it to pieces, and find a perfectly round piece, now I do believe in miracles, and I also believe a miracle created this earth, and that miracle was provided by God.

    God is not asking us to understand every scripture, he is just asking us to believe in his son Jesus Christ for our salvation, you can debate scriptures till the cows come home, scriptures don't get you into Heaven, and just your belief in his son and the grace of God gets us there. I personally don't like to debate scripture with unbelievers, because they have their own beliefs, so most of the time it's a lose/lose for both, the flesh is a mighty powerful thing, it's a lot harder to overcome the flesh, than to believe in God for some. I’m not here on this earth to try and convince anyone of anything, or try to open up locked minds. Don’t be surprised if one day, you receive a miracle that’s just so overwhelming, it unlocks that mind, and gets you wondering, maybe there is something to this God being real. In my world, when I'm being lured into debating scripture with an unbeliever, I remind myself of 2nd Timothy where it say's .....Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
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    "When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble".

  8. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Why not? It seems like a reasonable story to prove loyalty and devotion.
    I’ve been praying for a long time. Not going to stop either. But...never really heard a definite undeniable word from above. Now why in the heck, would I believe God would tell a man to kill his son as a sign of loyalty?

    If I was the son, I’d be asking can you check again? Are you sure?

    Really just makes no sense.

  9. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Roy, I haven't been in ARP long enough to know some of you, are you a believer? Yes the Bible was written by man, I don't think a spiritual being could hold a pencil or pen to write anything. So are saying you don't believe someone could be inspired to write something? Inspiration for us to want to do most anything has to come from somewhere, I guess it could come from our own minds and hearts, but I also believe it can come from God. I've always believed in God, so yes, I'm bias here, but I've also read and studied and watched many different things related to the earth and its design. I use this example, there is no way, you could take a concrete bolder 20'x20' stick a stick of dynamite under it, and blow it to pieces, and find a perfectly round piece, now I do believe in miracles, and I also believe a miracle created this earth, and that miracle was provided by God.

    God is not asking us to understand every scripture, he is just asking us to believe in his son Jesus Christ for our salvation, you can debate scriptures till the cows come home, scriptures don't get you into Heaven, and just your belief in his son and the grace of God gets us there. I personally don't like to debate scripture with unbelievers, because they have their own beliefs, so most of the time it's a lose/lose for both, the flesh is a mighty powerful thing, it's a lot harder to overcome the flesh, than to believe in God for some. I’m not here on this earth to try and convince anyone of anything, or try to open up locked minds. Don’t be surprised if one day, you receive a miracle that’s just so overwhelming, it unlocks that mind, and gets you wondering, maybe there is something to this God being real. In my world, when I'm being lured into debating scripture with an unbeliever, I remind myself of 2nd Timothy where it say's .....Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
    That’s a nice post! I admire your faith Mr Bill.

  10. #595
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    LOL! I agree on the son's viewpoint. I do get answers, but never in any form of spoken word. I think when we get answers to our prayers, they come via the Holy Spirit. One moment we don't know something, and the next we somehow do. As for the prophets in scripture, I can only guess an actual prophet got a more direct communication from God. Since the last prophet of God was the man Jesus, it is a bit difficult for us now to imagine how that might have worked. I'm thinking it may have been on the lines of some sort of telepathy or something. I'm also guessing that it took a certain type of person to be a prophet because hearing disembodied voices would just freak most people out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoobie View Post
    I’ve been praying for a long time. Not going to stop either. But...never really heard a definite undeniable word from above. Now why in the heck, would I believe God would tell a man to kill his son as a sign of loyalty?

    If I was the son, I’d be asking can you check again? Are you sure?

    Really just makes no sense.
    Training is important!
    Practical Training is a must!

  11. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    LOL! I agree on the son's viewpoint. I do get answers, but never in any form of spoken word. I think when we get answers to our prayers, they come via the Holy Spirit. One moment we don't know something, and the next we somehow do. As for the prophets in scripture, I can only guess an actual prophet got a more direct communication from God. Since the last prophet of God was the man Jesus, it is a bit difficult for us now to imagine how that might have worked. I'm thinking it may have been on the lines of some sort of telepathy or something. I'm also guessing that it took a certain type of person to be a prophet because hearing disembodied voices would just freak most people out.
    I like the way you put this. I can't say that this is an answered prayer but maybe more so a sign of being n the right path. I get deja vu, not often, or at least not as often as I use to. It is not something that I can recall as in a prophesy or a premonition that I know something will happen but I find my self in situations that I get a real strong feeling that I had done something or been there before yet there is no way I could have. The latest instance for example was when I read the post where PHM and Vin were added to the ARP committee. Since I have never seen a thread, let alone an individual post about anyone being added to that committee it is kinda strange when you get the feeling that you have read that before. I always take it as a sign I am on the right path. It has never been anything of value that I can discern like during a bid or picking lottery numbers (which I never play anyway). I think it is good enough to get the feeling that my life is going as it should.

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    A concept which renders the Truth relative & invalidates. Can't you see the inconsistency of your 'philosophy'? You say the Bible is inconsistent in that not all that is written is true. This 'inconsistency', presumably, exists because either the writers are lying (even though their intentions might be good) or mistaken. You have introduced variables that make discerning the actual Truth impossible. If the 'comprehension' of the Truth varies, it's not the Truth.



    And yet they teach different "Truths". Different paths to 'salvation'. Cherry-picking truths is hardly a reliable way to The Truth.



    Initially, it was my mother's teachings. She "came to the Lord" when I was about 10. She read the Word to us each and every morning. Over time, I too saw the Truth and had my own experience. Hebrews 4: 12 says that "the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." The NASB interprets 'quick and powerful' as "living and active" (this comes from the Greek). And so it is. The only way to know it is to experience it. It changes you.

    Let's face it. The quest for truth is mostly left to Faith. But, when you find the Truth, you know. The 'search' is over. From that point on, it's about Relationship, and allowing your heart to be changed, reshaped. A lifetime process. But the search ends when one recognizes that Jesus is who He said he was, and that the Bible is the Truth.

    How long have you searched? Is there an end in sight?


    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  13. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    But if we Trust God, and believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, can't we trust that He will not only include the texts he wishes, but also keep His Word intact down through the ages? That those texts we might believe should have been included aren't there for a reason? After all, if we believe that He created all that exists, is he not up to this simple task?

    I know that not all agree that the Bible is the inspired Word, but if it's not, on what can we 'anchor' our faith? The argument exists that "the Bible was written by men and therefore fallible'. But that argument can be applied to any and all writings about God, so becomes invalid.

    If we reject the Bible on the basis of man's involvement, we must reject all else on the same basis, in which case, we have nothing to 'hang our hat on'. It becomes an intellectual exercise, with man choosing what he will or won't believe. And, if we can't trust the Bible (or any other writing) because it was 'written by man', how can we base our beliefs solely on the conclusions we draw, being mere, fallible men?
    Vin,

    "Trusting God", ... Meaning The Almighty LORD GOD of Yisrael, & "Trusting Man", ... Are Two Totally Different Mechanisms.

    Reading The Scriptures, easily proves this, .... YAHWEH Stated what to Do, & Adam & Eve Rebelled.

    YAHWEH, through Moses, told The Children of Yisrael what to do & they Rebelled.

    YAHWEH through the Prophets told The Children of Yisrael what to do, when they had the Temple, The Torah Scrolls, & The Levite Priests as Teachers, &, .... They Rebelled.

    That pattern exists from Genesis to Revelation, & that "Pattern" has existed since the beginning of Mankind.

    I Fully Trust that YAHWEH sent His Word to Mankind, ...... But, I do not Fully Trust Mankind's Religous Leaders, especially after learning what their various Agendas were & are.

    The "Oral Law"/ "Traditionalists" Upholders, or as they are known Today, ... The "Talmudic Jews", Canonized the O.T./ Tanach, & in the Talmud it is written that Ezra withheld at least 70 books from the "Canonization" of The Old Testament/ Tanach.

    The New Testament, & for those outside of "Judaism", ... The Bible, ... was "Canonized" by the Catholic "Church", via Anathisius & Jerome, & they also excluded/ banned more than 50 books.

    The "Talmudic Jews" do not uphold The Way of The Scriptures, nor do the Catholics for that matter. In fact Catholicism practically Ruled the Western World Militarily, Politically, Economically, & Spiritually for more than 1500 years, & Catholicism still has a very Heavy Influence upon the entire World today.

    I've studied many Bibles, as well as many different Sects of "Christianity", & the different Sects/ "Movements" of "Judaism", as well as specific topics in the Talmud. Those "Studies" woke me up to the fact that Man's Religions are largely just that, ....."Religions made up by Man", & not that of Our Creator/ Savior.

    "Judaism", Catholicism, & "Christianity", all largely rejected Enoch, & other works that have been found in the Dead Sea Caves, & I suspect that they rejected these works, cuz' they spoke against the "Agendas" of "Judaism" Catholicism, & the ever expanding "Christian Faith".

    With that said, .... I Largely Trust The Scriptures, with a few exceptions, such as the "Questionable Paul", & where he contradicts the Messiah/Holy One, as well as The Apostles, The Prophets, & The Torah, ... then I Reject him.And, where he upholds their Teachings, then I accept him.

    I also reject the Book of Esther, & Look upon the books of Ezra & Nehemiah only as a form of historical reference due to Ezra & Nehemiah overthrowing the Aaronic Priesthood, & the Kingship line of David.

    What Absolutely Convicted me of The Truth of The Scriptures at first, .... Was Last Days Prophecy being Fulfilled in Our Time. And from there, as I FEasted upon that "Heavenly Bread", & Saw Prayers Answered & much more, .... My Faith Grew & Still Stands.

    But again, ..... I don't Trust "Man's Religions", nor what they have done with The Scriptures, & I cross reference/verify all that I study.
    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.


    "You've got to Stand for Something or You'll fall for anything" (A. Tippin)


    Mat_15:24 But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

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