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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    That doesn't make it legal.
    Could you explain what you mean?
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

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  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Could you explain what you mean?
    In order to be a legally binding contract, it must conform to standards that include the observation of current laws and rights. For example, since slavery is illegal, a contract making someone a slave is null and void.

    In the case of a service agreement, that acceptance does not make everything in the agreement permissible under law. That said, many agreement creators include illegal parts on the basis that someone may not know those parts are illegal, in order to require or discourage acts on the part of the unknowing person agreeing to the document.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    In order to be a legally binding contract, it must conform to standards that include the observation of current laws and rights. For example, since slavery is illegal, a contract making someone a slave is null and void.

    In the case of a service agreement, that acceptance does not make everything in the agreement permissible under law. That said, many agreement creators include illegal parts on the basis that someone may not know those parts are illegal, in order to require or discourage acts on the part of the unknowing person agreeing to the document.
    Of course, that's obvious. What I wondered was how BB arrived at embedding is not legal post.
    Many contracts are written in ways that keeps lawyers employed. Full disclosure is required but can be hidden in legal wording. But it's still there. Embedded in the document.
    When reading a philosophy book, the first chapter might deal with what is meant by this or that word. The writers want to be very clear on what they are saying. Many contracts don't care if they are completely understood.
    You said: " many agreement creators include illegal parts on the basis that someone may not know those parts are illegal, in order to require or discourage acts on the part of the unknowing person agreeing to the document.[/QUOTE]"
    I don't know if the number is Many or Some. Most I've signed have been fairly simple. I think a very helpful class is Logic. It helps recognize wording.
    Some of the IRS tax law can be difficult.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  4. #43
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    The difficulty is not for clarity. It is to keep the specialists employed and necessary. Clarity would make many of their jobs unnecessary.

    If they can get away with putting an illegal concept into an agreement, they will do so, if it serves their corporate purpose.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  5. #44
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    Timebuilder explained it more eloquently than I probably can. But here's my response:

    In your post, the context was about things in a contract that you can NOT do. Let's use the Iphone as the example. Apple may say that you cannot repair your own phone (I seriously doubt they do), but that would be illegal because it is your property. At least once you've paid for it.

    Other things like intellectual property are already covered under the law to protect the designer or artist or whoever. So verbiage along those lines is unnecessary; although a contract may contain protections along these lines, it would probably be more for things where it was questionable if it really was intellectual property or not. In which case it could end up in a court for a judge to decide.


    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Could you explain what you mean?
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    In order to be a legally binding contract, it must conform to standards that include the observation of current laws and rights. For example, since slavery is illegal, a contract making someone a slave is null and void.

    In the case of a service agreement, that acceptance does not make everything in the agreement permissible under law. That said, many agreement creators include illegal parts on the basis that someone may not know those parts are illegal, in order to require or discourage acts on the part of the unknowing person agreeing to the document.
    You actually see that stuff very frequently with warranty agreements. The manufacturer will often tell you opening the equipment will void the warranty, using 3rd party parts will void the warranty, using 3rd party fluids, etc... will void the warranty, having someone else service the machine will void the warranty, etc...

    When in reality, all of that is illegal under the Magnusson-Moss warranty act. A manufacturer cannot force you to use their fluids/consumables to maintain the warranty (otherwise they have to provide those fluids for free, for the duration of the warranty). If your aftermarket parts/fluids match or exceed the OEM specifications, they cannot void your warranty. They can't void your warranty for opening the machine and having a look around, and they can't void it for having someone else service it either.

    For example, if you had a compressor failure, they can't deny your compressor warranty replacement just because at some point you replaced the condenser fan with a different type. Under Magnusson-Moss, the manufacturer has to prove that your fan is what caused the compressor to fail.

    You see this all the time in the automotive world where dealers will try to void someones warranty because they made some aftermarket modifications to their cars. I've seen instances where dealers will try to void the warranty on an engine that had a timing chain failure just because the owner put an aftermarket exhaust on.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    Timebuilder explained it more eloquently than I probably can. But here's my response:

    In your post, the context was about things in a contract that you can NOT do. Let's use the Iphone as the example. Apple may say that you cannot repair your own phone (I seriously doubt they do), but that would be illegal because it is your property. At least once you've paid for it.

    Other things like intellectual property are already covered under the law to protect the designer or artist or whoever. So verbiage along those lines is unnecessary; although a contract may contain protections along these lines, it would probably be more for things where it was questionable if it really was intellectual property or not. In which case it could end up in a court for a judge to decide.

    At the very least they want to control the parts

    https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/13...r-shop-norway/

  8. #47
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    Apple is pretty phucked up.

    Haven't liked their products. Honestly don't even know why people keep buying that stuff. I can only guess it has to with marketing.



    Quote Originally Posted by stat View Post
    At the very least they want to control the parts

    https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/13...r-shop-norway/
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

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  10. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanLoco View Post
    You actually see that stuff very frequently with warranty agreements. The manufacturer will often tell you opening the equipment will void the warranty, using 3rd party parts will void the warranty, using 3rd party fluids, etc... will void the warranty, having someone else service the machine will void the warranty, etc...

    When in reality, all of that is illegal under the Magnusson-Moss warranty act. A manufacturer cannot force you to use their fluids/consumables to maintain the warranty (otherwise they have to provide those fluids for free, for the duration of the warranty). If your aftermarket parts/fluids match or exceed the OEM specifications, they cannot void your warranty. They can't void your warranty for opening the machine and having a look around, and they can't void it for having someone else service it either.

    For example, if you had a compressor failure, they can't deny your compressor warranty replacement just because at some point you replaced the condenser fan with a different type. Under Magnusson-Moss, the manufacturer has to prove that your fan is what caused the compressor to fail.

    In support of manufacturers, Product protection during the warranty is often important.
    I had a portable hard drive quit. My dog knocked it about. I opened it to peek.
    There is no clean room around and I know I contaminated the drive.
    Was it still warrantied ( IT might have been) and should the manufacturer be responsible?
    I exposed the drive to unrecoverable conditions. I think Seagate would be held harmless as I see the language commonly applied.

    Sometimes there is an epoxy coating on chips. I can remove it with acids but I wouldn't expect the warranty would apply.
    Ownership is not the question, the question is enforcing conditions of the warranty and what actions will void it. To that extent it seems there are two owners. One owning the property rights and another owning manufacturer responsibilities.

    Anyway contractors might want to re-read their warranties to be sure they mean what they say.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  11. #49
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    This reminds me of a situation when I worked for Icom America in Bellevue, WA several years ago. I was having a discussion with a fellow who worked for one of the companies that makes radio modems for amateur radio. A customer sent in his modem and the company tech noticed that he had an aftermarket EEPROM which allowed the modem to perform certain functions--maybe such as use the modem to work on commercial radio sites and not just amateur sites. Anyway, the modem company tech confiscated the EEPROM and told the customer it was some kind of violation because he wasn't using their EEPROM that the modem was designed to work with. The modem worked fine with the customer's EEPROM though. So, should the customer not have the right to use his own EEPROM? This is like the guy that takes the EEPROM out of his car to replace it with one that won't limit to the speed of the car to 110MPH. Should the owner of the car not have the right to do that?
    No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. -- Charles Dickens

  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by exreo View Post
    This reminds me of a situation when I worked for Icom America in Bellevue, WA several years ago. I was having a discussion with a fellow who worked for one of the companies that makes radio modems for amateur radio. A customer sent in his modem and the company tech noticed that he had an aftermarket EEPROM which allowed the modem to perform certain functions--maybe such as use the modem to work on commercial radio sites and not just amateur sites. Anyway, the modem company tech confiscated the EEPROM and told the customer it was some kind of violation because he wasn't using their EEPROM that the modem was designed to work with. The modem worked fine with the customer's EEPROM though. So, should the customer not have the right to use his own EEPROM? This is like the guy that takes the EEPROM out of his car to replace it with one that won't limit to the speed of the car to 110MPH. Should the owner of the car not have the right to do that?
    In that specific situation, my guess is that such a modification would have violated the FCC's listing of the product. That's more of a federal law question in regards to the FCC's authority, rather than whatever the manufacturer thinks. Whether the tech should have actually done anything about it versus just reporting the guy to the feds is a different question though, I would say.

  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjk_cmh View Post
    In that specific situation, my guess is that such a modification would have violated the FCC's listing of the product. That's more of a federal law question in regards to the FCC's authority, rather than whatever the manufacturer thinks. Whether the tech should have actually done anything about it versus just reporting the guy to the feds is a different question though, I would say.
    Yep, perfect example of that FCC authority if you don't mind...We sold a popular marine radio called the Icom M710. It was for use on marine frequencies so people could make long distance radio links back home or where ever. Well, these guys that put this radio and tuner on their boat also wanted to use it for doing ham radio communictions. But, Icom had a "thing" about the M710 not being used for ham radio because supposedly it was a violation of FCC rules. Man, we went round and round about this. Customers would bring their M710s in for us "open them up" for use on ham frequencies. We had a special program that we ran for this and it also programmed in many ham frequencies into the radio. As a technician, I was caught in the middle. One supervisor would approve of the radios being "opened up", and another feared the FCC and would refuse. I usually programmed the radio for ham use and especially since my boss didn't have a problem with it. But the question is why shouldn't the customer be able to use his marine HF radio for doing ham communications as well? The radio certainly met all the requirements (frequency stability and accuracy, % modulation, etc.) of ham radios and more.
    No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. -- Charles Dickens

  14. #52
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    Maybe there was a fear the radios would jam up the air space. I know there is only so much room to use. I used to have a chart but gave it to a radio guy. The FCC has dissected the radio band to the point it looks like a Slice & Dice commercial.
    Some years ago, pirate radio was being chased around too.

    A lot of concerns are about the warranty responsibilities. As long as a contractor or manufacturer is being held responsible, they should have a voice in that.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

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