What do you think about laws protecting the "Right to repair"?

[Mike19]

I have tried with hot side/coffee machine manufacturers with no luck.

The local McDonalds franchise wanted me to get certified to work on their coffee machines as they had to use a company 90 miles away. We called the company on a conference call and were told "there is already a certified company in your area, we don't need another one"

I think I might still have books for the Sinfonia if you need any.

I haven’t worked on any of those for a while.

If the stores have the FM whatever or any other machines I don’t have info on them.

[BBeerme]

From a legal standpoint, this right here is the dividing line. Let's look at a very simple example.

Once you buy a book, you can do anything you want with it. If you use it as a murder weapon, you may be put to death yourself, but not because you used the book.

The author, of course, hopes that you read the book for the intended purpose. Could be enjoyment, for education, to pass along history, whatever. But the book is yours, it does not belong to anyone but you, and you get to decide what to do with it.

Regarding our trade, I see 30-40 year old pneumatic systems that begin to have a lot of required repairs. And I always recommend the building owner to stick with the pneumatics. Because I also see a lot of 'high end' electronic control systems that are obsolete within ten years. Or where you need to pay an annual fee for them to allow you to continue using their system.

If you own it, it is yours to do what you want with it.

What I don't like is when I am told I do not own something, but what I have is a license to use it, and limitations are stipulated. Distinction without a difference in my book. If I pay money for something, I expect to use for my own personal use as I see fit, no matter how many devices I have it installed on.

I still buy CDs and DVDs. I have never downloaded a song or movie in my life. Those are my copies and I will load them on to as many of my devices as I like. The law says I can.

Same with a tractor (my dad retired out of John Deere and I wish I had his benefits). If I buy it, it is mine. Now I understand that under warranty the manufacturer has say in things, but after that, it belongs to me.

IMHO

[stat]

Bunn, Mellitta, Franke?

I had to go to school in Smyrna, TN for Franke. You aren’t missing out, the school was kind of a joke.

Franke

[AmericanLoco]

Look, a lot of corporate secrets are because of intellectual property protection. If all those schematics and tear down information were out there and other company could try to reverse engineer the widget.

That's valid - however any competitive company can just buy the product and tear it apart. All modern automakers buy each other's products and tear them down to every last bolt.

AmericanLoco mentioned Linux and open source. Sounds great but how do you sell it and why did the originator even do it. If he had a better Windows, why give it away.

It's not always about making money. But regardless, many people have figured out how make money with Linux. You sell the support and service. You can make your own Linux product, but it has to be open sourced. The perfect example of this is Red Hat and Fedora. Red Hat is the commercial product, while Fedora is the free and open source release of Red Hat needed to comply with the Linux software license. Red Hat has extensive support and gets critical updates faster, while Fedora is largely left on its own.

I've heard all the rants that knowledge should be free ( mostly from the Anonymous franchise). I don't agree because I like to be paid for my work. Hackers justify their theft to that argument.

That's fine, some people like to share their knowledge and expertise for some kind of greater benefit. It's why forums like this exist.

The even more curious question is I've heard Google ( I think ) might buy Linux. Why? Is it to sell their version of Red Hat? If you can't sell the widget, sell the accessories.

You can't "buy" Linux. Google already has a Linux based product - Android.

[exreo]

The reality is that no matter how many individuals figure out how something works, most people will not be able to figure out how it works and therefore to the extent possible, the manufacturer is able to protect their intellectual property.

As soon as someone attempts to pass a law saying that people like John Deere or Apple have to share all their secrets, those companies will mediately find a federal judge who will put the stops to that right away, and it will go through the federal court system for years being held up because no one will be able to find a way around our intellectual property, patent, and copyright laws..... which a right to repair law would certainly violate.

Except if you live in China.

[mariner59]

You see it in many sectors of industry where the manufacturers do their utmost to lock in the after sales service markets by making it more and more difficult for the independent repairer to do the service.
Take the car industry. When I started driving in the 1980's almost everybody I knew serviced his own car. Because they could and there were no configurators, computers etc. needed. Now you can do hardly nothing without a diagnose computer.
I sailed as a marine engineer, and we did all maintenance and repairs by ourselves. Today you can't even change an injector on many marine Diesel engines without programming it first.

[timebuilder]

Except if you live in China.

It's easy to make a million copies of a Frozen DVD, but higher values products are much harder to copy and ship to the states. That said, the Chinese have become the defacto masters of design theft, and they know all about the iphone, since they are building it there. Maybe the hapless guy in the video on the first post should call Beijing. They can tell him how to fix those phones.

[rjk_cmh]

It's easy to make a million copies of a Frozen DVD, but higher values products are much harder to copy and ship to the states. That said, the Chinese have become the defacto masters of design theft, and they know all about the iphone, since they are building it there. Maybe the hapless guy in the video on the first post should call Beijing. They can tell him how to fix those phones.

He knows how to fix the phones, but it usually requires torrented schematics from Russia and pulling parts from other used/broken phones since Apple will not sell them to him for any price, and will not give him any kind of certification to repair their devices no matter what he would like to pay. Look at it this way: Would you like to be in the HVAC business if Trane refused to provide you with certain parts and boards that you can't get generic versions of, and also did not provide the wiring diagram in any form at all unless you downloaded it illegally from a russian torrent site? His repairs are the equivalent of pulling RTRM boards off of junk equipment for the purpose to fixing good equipment that has a bad board, because "Trane" (Apple) won't sell him the parts. Furthermore, the "authorized" apple dealers are NOT ALLOWED by Apple to repair certain problems - they can only replace the device which is extremely wasteful, and is also not an option if the device has irreplaceable data stuck on it (pictures, videos, etc).

[James Colver]

This is an interesting discussion that I would like to have seeing as it impacts our trade in a very real way. Basically, the premise is that the manufacturer would like to prevent you from repairing their products and refuses to provide diagrams and parts unless you are an "authorized" (by them) repair person/shop. The following video discusses this from the perspective of a person that repairs Apple products such as iPhones and MacBooks, and I highly recommend watching his take on the matter. I'm concerned that this anti-repair mentality is slowly creeping into many more aspects of our lives, and could eventually impact our trade even more so than it does already. (Example: certain diagnostic tools for Trane products are only available to Trane distributors, and not to any capable tech that would like to buy them.)

Well it seems to me there has always been a certain segment of out population who wants to replace rather than repair. I'm not sure if this is a new phenomenon. With regard to Apple in particular I really don't care for their phone and the fact that it's hard to replace the battery is one of the many reasons why.

[timebuilder]

He knows how to fix the phones, but it usually requires torrented schematics from Russia and pulling parts from other used/broken phones since Apple will not sell them to him for any price, and will not give him any kind of certification to repair their devices no matter what he would like to pay. Look at it this way: Would you like to be in the HVAC business if Trane refused to provide you with certain parts and boards that you can't get generic versions of, and also did not provide the wiring diagram in any form at all unless you downloaded it illegally from a russian torrent site? His repairs are the equivalent of pulling RTRM boards off of junk equipment for the purpose to fixing good equipment that has a bad board, because "Trane" (Apple) won't sell him the parts. Furthermore, the "authorized" apple dealers are NOT ALLOWED by Apple to repair certain problems - they can only replace the device which is extremely wasteful, and is also not an option if the device has irreplaceable data stuck on it (pictures, videos, etc).

No problemo..... if Trane decided that they didn't want to sell me parts, I would explain to the customer the need for a different brand of unit... be very convincing.... and that unit will be on their roof and Trane would sell no parts. Trane actually knows this....which is why that does not happen.

[rjk_cmh]

No problemo..... if Trane decided that they didn't want to sell me parts, I would explain to the customer the need for a different brand of unit... be very convincing.... and that unit will be on their roof and Trane would sell no parts. Trane actually knows this....which is why that does not happen.

That's all well and good until an entire industry starts having this problem, and then you end up throwing away perfectly good stuff that is a year out of warranty. Like I said, wasteful, and in some cases there are no other options to choose from. I should be allowed to fix things that I own or that other people pay me to fix without fear of being branded as a criminal and sued by the manufacturer, which is what is happening more and more in the higher technology equipment space.

[hvacker]

The business of America ( the US) is business. Make America Great Again really means making business great again.
How many read the agreement that we click on with software. The agreements are not all equal. You might be surprised on what you've agreed to.
You could look at "Terms of service agreements I didn't read" It a site that rates them and gives a look at some traps.
Thing is a contract can have anything embedded just like when some of y'all write service/install contracts. Some that have been posted in part I wouldn't sign.
Many purchases are conditional. Full of intellectual property and conditions. That is what I would also do if I had a product I thought might get stolen. Play music and sell CD's. Some think they should be able to copy and even distribute the property. I don't.
In that instance the purchase is permission to use and that's it. And the laws agree.

The down side is business also has the ability to steal ideas and average Joe won't have the tools to stop them. Tools like lawyers, time, and $$. Interesting when Joe trues to patent his idea. So before someone shouts about their rights or what they should be allowed they might want to take a closer look at what they are NOT allowed to do. Most likely it's embedded in the agreement they signed.

[BBeerme]

That doesn't make it legal.

The business of America ( the US) is business. Make America Great Again really means making business great again.
How many read the agreement that we click on with software. The agreements are not all equal. You might be surprised on what you've agreed to.
You could look at "Terms of service agreements I didn't read" It a site that rates them and gives a look at some traps.
Thing is a contract can have anything embedded just like when some of y'all write service/install contracts. Some that have been posted in part I wouldn't sign.
Many purchases are conditional. Full of intellectual property and conditions. That is what I would also do if I had a product I thought might get stolen. Play music and sell CD's. Some think they should be able to copy and even distribute the property. I don't.
In that instance the purchase is permission to use and that's it. And the laws agree.

The down side is business also has the ability to steal ideas and average Joe won't have the tools to stop them. Tools like lawyers, time, and $$. Interesting when Joe trues to patent his idea. So before someone shouts about their rights or what they should be allowed they might want to take a closer look at what they are NOT allowed to do. Most likely it's embedded in the agreement they signed.

[ga-hvac-tech]

A 'free' society ONLY works... when the majority of people are basically honest and believe society is more important than how much $$$ they can make and how many toys they can die with title to.

When a society moves towards that second set of (self destructive values)... the end result is a free society becomes an oligarch or warlord society.

Now do we want that to happen here???

[shellkamp]

A 'free' society ONLY works... when the majority of people are basically honest and believe society is more important than how much $$$ they can make and how many toys they can die with title to.

Sounds very similar to the basis of communism! :grin:

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[ga-hvac-tech]

Sounds very similar to the basis of communism! :grin:

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The difference... is in communism, or socialism, or marxism... the govt controls everything.
In freedom, the market controls business.

If you want to discuss this more... suggest we take it to ARP...
Respect for the forum... keeping ARP in ARP...

[timebuilder]

Jefferson opined that a representative Republic can only sustain itself if it is populated by a moral people.

[shellkamp]

Jefferson opined that a representative Republic can only sustain itself if it is populated by a moral people.

Jefferson was correct.

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[Answer-Man]

Over the years I have learned and it is my opinion and observation: 1. Manufacturers have the right to sell equipment, parts and share drawings, specification or other intelectual information with whomever they wish. 2. There are some components that are only available from the manufacturer. 3. Manufacturer only parts, does not mean you can't buy the replacement part from somone who is authroized to purchase them. The underlying reasons who manufacturers choose is to protect the manufacturers assets and profits for as long as they can.


With respect to repairing "stuff".
No manufacturer has the right to tell anyone who has purchased their "thing" they can't repair the defective "thing" or have a 3rd or 4th party repair it for them. What manufacturers can prohibit is you or anyone else from stating they are an "authorized" vendor and/or the manufacturer backs their repair typically via a warranty of some sort, if it is not true. You can warrant your labor or the parts you sold them (if you wish to, that is at your potential cost/lose)

As an example: If this were not true there would be no auto parts stores, no automotive repair shops, no remanufacturerd parts, no junkyards or any other place to get a repair part for your car/truck except the dealership. This applys to anything else you wish to apply it to such as: air conditioners or tractors. Last fall I purchased a Timken bearing from a local supply house to replace the identical bearing in my Ford Expedition. Did I break any law? Nope!

Warranties, patents and proprietary information throw wrinkles into the repair aspect many times, but that does not prohibit anyone from making a repair for an owner of an item. The repair may not be with OEM parts but how many really use just OEM purchased replacement parts? (Did you buy that last last condensor fan motor from Trane or was it a universal replacement from the supply house?) I listened to a news report last week that the federal govenment specifically told Sony, Samsung and several other large electronic manufacturers they could not say only authorized vendor's can make warranty repairs. I have been trying to find that information to link here (but have not found it yet). If I do I will add it.

The weather is about perfect here today, I just may quit early and enjoy it, have a good afternoon

[hvacker]

That doesn't make it legal.

Could you explain what you mean?