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  1. #14
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    Feb 2004
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    Look, a lot of corporate secrets are because of intellectual property protection. If all those schematics and tear down information were out there and other company could try to reverse engineer the widget.
    It's a fact that when a patent is issued the secrets are published. There is no such thing as a secret patent.
    There is also warranty protection of a product. To ask a purchaser to leave the machine alone is protecting a companies warranty obligation. When companies here issue a warranty on an install it's normally written that only your company can do work during the warranty. Makes sense. Your working for free so it's questionable why someone would void that paper.

    AmericanLoco mentioned Linux and open source. Sounds great but how do you sell it and why did the originator even do it. If he had a better Windows, why give it away.
    I've heard all the rants that knowledge should be free ( mostly from the Anonymous franchise). I don't agree because I like to be paid for my work. Hackers justify their theft to that argument.
    The even more curious question is I've heard Google ( I think ) might buy Linux. Why? Is it to sell their version of Red Hat? If you can't sell the widget, sell the accessories.

    If you have the next million $$ idea, count your time because it will be ripped off. The idea of fighting the wolves off is naive. They are legion. So do what can be done to keep them at bay for long as possible. Including keeping secrets.
    Just because there might be hackers and thieves out there doesn't mean you just curl up and quit. You do what you can.
    Just me and my survival mentality..
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    What I don't like is when I am told I do not own something, but what I have is a license to use it, and limitations are stipulated. Distinction without a difference in my book. If I pay money for something, I expect to use for my own personal use as I see fit, no matter how many devices I have it installed on.

    I still buy CDs and DVDs. I have never downloaded a song or movie in my life. Those are my copies and I will load them on to as many of my devices as I like. The law says I can.

    Same with a tractor (my dad retired out of John Deere and I wish I had his benefits). If I buy it, it is mine. Now I understand that under warranty the manufacturer has say in things, but after that, it belongs to me.

    IMHO

  3. Likes rjk_cmh liked this post.
  4. #16
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    Nov 2006
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    The reality is that no matter how many individuals figure out how something works, most people will not be able to figure out how it works and therefore to the extent possible, the manufacturer is able to protect their intellectual property.

    As soon as someone attempts to pass a law saying that people like John Deere or Apple have to share all their secrets, those companies will mediately find a federal judge who will put the stops to that right away, and it will go through the federal court system for years being held up because no one will be able to find a way around our intellectual property, patent, and copyright laws..... which a right to repair law would certainly violate.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
    Member, IAEI

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  5. #17
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    Nov 2006
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    Southeastern Pa
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    Oh....someone mentioned automotive diagnostic codes.

    Every manufacturer has proprietary codes that no one except those with the actual manufacturer scan tool and software can access.

    The only codes which by law must be accessible are those defined in federal statutes involving the Clean Air Act, so that an average repair shop using a scan tool of a cost of no more than $200 can successfully repair an automobile to bring it under Federal emissions guidelines.

    There is no force of law that says that the manufacturers have to make their proprietary codes accessible to anyone except their own dealer networks.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
    Member, IAEI

    AOP Forum Rules:







  6. #18
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    Dec 2003
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    I did not read all of these posts but have you ever tried to obtain service manuals from Refrigerator manufacturers? Good luck unless you're a factory authorized repair person.
    Doug

  7. #19
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    Jun 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I did not read all of these posts but have you ever tried to obtain service manuals from Refrigerator manufacturers? Good luck unless you're a factory authorized repair person.

    I have tried with hot side/coffee machine manufacturers with no luck.

    The local McDonalds franchise wanted me to get certified to work on their coffee machines as they had to use a company 90 miles away. We called the company on a conference call and were told "there is already a certified company in your area, we don't need another one"

  8. #20
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    Oct 2012
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    Where we mow our own grass
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    Quote Originally Posted by stat View Post
    I have tried with hot side/coffee machine manufacturers with no luck.

    The local McDonalds franchise wanted me to get certified to work on their coffee machines as they had to use a company 90 miles away. We called the company on a conference call and were told "there is already a certified company in your area, we don't need another one"
    Bunn, Mellitta, Franke?

    I had to go to school in Smyrna, TN for Franke. You aren’t missing out, the school was kind of a joke.

  9. #21
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    Oct 2012
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    Where we mow our own grass
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    Quote Originally Posted by stat View Post
    I have tried with hot side/coffee machine manufacturers with no luck.

    The local McDonalds franchise wanted me to get certified to work on their coffee machines as they had to use a company 90 miles away. We called the company on a conference call and were told "there is already a certified company in your area, we don't need another one"
    I think I might still have books for the Sinfonia if you need any.

    I haven’t worked on any of those for a while.

    If the stores have the FM whatever or any other machines I don’t have info on them.

  10. #22
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    May 2014
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    Bay Area California
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    From a legal standpoint, this right here is the dividing line. Let's look at a very simple example.

    Once you buy a book, you can do anything you want with it. If you use it as a murder weapon, you may be put to death yourself, but not because you used the book.

    The author, of course, hopes that you read the book for the intended purpose. Could be enjoyment, for education, to pass along history, whatever. But the book is yours, it does not belong to anyone but you, and you get to decide what to do with it.

    Regarding our trade, I see 30-40 year old pneumatic systems that begin to have a lot of required repairs. And I always recommend the building owner to stick with the pneumatics. Because I also see a lot of 'high end' electronic control systems that are obsolete within ten years. Or where you need to pay an annual fee for them to allow you to continue using their system.

    If you own it, it is yours to do what you want with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by stat View Post
    What I don't like is when I am told I do not own something, but what I have is a license to use it, and limitations are stipulated. Distinction without a difference in my book. If I pay money for something, I expect to use for my own personal use as I see fit, no matter how many devices I have it installed on.

    I still buy CDs and DVDs. I have never downloaded a song or movie in my life. Those are my copies and I will load them on to as many of my devices as I like. The law says I can.

    Same with a tractor (my dad retired out of John Deere and I wish I had his benefits). If I buy it, it is mine. Now I understand that under warranty the manufacturer has say in things, but after that, it belongs to me.

    IMHO
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  11. Likes CEAS-AC-TECH liked this post.
  12. #23
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    Jun 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike19 View Post
    Bunn, Mellitta, Franke?

    I had to go to school in Smyrna, TN for Franke. You aren’t missing out, the school was kind of a joke.
    Franke

  13. #24
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    Apr 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Look, a lot of corporate secrets are because of intellectual property protection. If all those schematics and tear down information were out there and other company could try to reverse engineer the widget.
    That's valid - however any competitive company can just buy the product and tear it apart. All modern automakers buy each other's products and tear them down to every last bolt.
    AmericanLoco mentioned Linux and open source. Sounds great but how do you sell it and why did the originator even do it. If he had a better Windows, why give it away.
    It's not always about making money. But regardless, many people have figured out how make money with Linux. You sell the support and service. You can make your own Linux product, but it has to be open sourced. The perfect example of this is Red Hat and Fedora. Red Hat is the commercial product, while Fedora is the free and open source release of Red Hat needed to comply with the Linux software license. Red Hat has extensive support and gets critical updates faster, while Fedora is largely left on its own.
    I've heard all the rants that knowledge should be free ( mostly from the Anonymous franchise). I don't agree because I like to be paid for my work. Hackers justify their theft to that argument.
    That's fine, some people like to share their knowledge and expertise for some kind of greater benefit. It's why forums like this exist.
    The even more curious question is I've heard Google ( I think ) might buy Linux. Why? Is it to sell their version of Red Hat? If you can't sell the widget, sell the accessories.
    You can't "buy" Linux. Google already has a Linux based product - Android.

  14. #25
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    May 2006
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    Ft. Worth, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    The reality is that no matter how many individuals figure out how something works, most people will not be able to figure out how it works and therefore to the extent possible, the manufacturer is able to protect their intellectual property.

    As soon as someone attempts to pass a law saying that people like John Deere or Apple have to share all their secrets, those companies will mediately find a federal judge who will put the stops to that right away, and it will go through the federal court system for years being held up because no one will be able to find a way around our intellectual property, patent, and copyright laws..... which a right to repair law would certainly violate.
    Except if you live in China.
    No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. -- Charles Dickens

  15. #26
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    Apr 2018
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    Sagard, Germany
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    You see it in many sectors of industry where the manufacturers do their utmost to lock in the after sales service markets by making it more and more difficult for the independent repairer to do the service.
    Take the car industry. When I started driving in the 1980's almost everybody I knew serviced his own car. Because they could and there were no configurators, computers etc. needed. Now you can do hardly nothing without a diagnose computer.
    I sailed as a marine engineer, and we did all maintenance and repairs by ourselves. Today you can't even change an injector on many marine Diesel engines without programming it first.

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