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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidadavis View Post
    How many of you guy's have worked in manufacturing? It is not good nor high paying work in this day and age.

    But let's consider further what manufacturing we want to focus on. Do we want to artificially prop up steel manufacturing with the profits from the US industries that are competitive? Or buy cheap steel and manufacture higher tech goods that sell for a higher profit margin?

    We don't need isolation, we need IP development and IP protection.
    I worked in a lot of manufacturing plants around here during the mid to late 90s up till about 2013 and what I saw happen was a switch from long term employees of the manufacturers to the manufacturers bringing in labor companies. The plant employees are employees of the labor contractors and not of the plant itself. Low paying jobs with poor benefits. A lot of the jobs are temp jobs. They bring in people for unskilled work and get rid of them after 120 days. No benefits.... and the labor companies keep these people on a cycle... 120 days here... 120 there..... if that....

    I have also witnessed machines taking the place of employees. We used to work with the plants setting new machines providing cooling ventilation etc... for them...... I remember asking a japanese guy once about a big machine we were working on... and what it did...... his answer was that it replaced 3 workers....... lol

    Manufacturing might make a comeback some day....... but its not going to be anything like the plants of yesterday when you had a career at the plant for life with benefits and a retirement. Its dog eat dog... if a machine dont replace you, once you slow down a bit they will just kick you to the curb and bring in a younger guy.
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  3. #28
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    Corn,
    I agree with you but the real goal is to maintain in this country production of critical products needed for the protection of the country. We simply can't rely solely on imports for these needs.
    It isn't only manufacturing that has changed how they treat employees but across the board in the larger companies. As you age the target on your back grows and that has little or nothing to do with tariffs.

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  5. #29
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    Wayne, first we don’t get much steel from CN, second, any sophisticated manufacturer knows to include quality in their buying criteria. I gave several OEM’s tours of Danfoss factories for that very reason.

  6. #30
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    david,
    China was just an example of what could and has happened. They only supply about 11% of our steel needs but we only produce about 10% of our own needs. Ten percent is not enough and anything we put into war equipment should have the assured integrity needed without further testing by the purchaser.
    Was Danfoss using Chinese steel? If so was it good quality?
    Aside from the possibility of poor quality steel we could be cut off completely.

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  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    Trump failed into becoming a multi-billionaire. I haven't figured out how to do that so I must be a success. Back in the 90's Chinese steel was so bad it had to be banned on many projects. In war time suppose we imported that crap or something similar and used it on advanced air craft. I can't think of a better way to bring a plane down without firing a shot. In general I am against tariffs because most of the time if there is a winner it is the governments that successfully charge and get the money. In this case cost to the consumer has to take a back seat because we need manufacturers in the event of war. If we can't produce the steel and are cut off from foreign sources we will be in the same position Japan was in during WW11.
    Several years back the U.S. built a plant to produce rocket fuel. The reason was that the only source was foreign and if that was cut off we were in trouble. The plant was mothballed because there wasn't a present need. We have to protect our steel and aluminum production industry for the same reason. It may not be pleasant but we simply can't let them all die.
    Sometimes you have to put the country first and that is now.
    Good point. But perhaps there is a better way to protect them besides tariffs. They will make enemies. They will hurt every American especially the middle class on down. They will hurt other industries in one form or another. Some drastically.

    One thing to keep in mind. It's easy to see the immediate benefits of tariffs. But some of the long term catastrophic fallout won't even be recognized. What if IBM would have built a new 20 story office building in Seattle in 6 or 10 years? But due to the tariffs on steel that costs 20% more, that idea isn't even mentioned at the board meeting. It never happens. They likely would have added hundreds of high paying jobs on this country. Not to mention all the tradesmen and suppliers that lose out on what would have been.

    That is just one negative effect of tariffs. And it highlights to problem with "populism". It's so easy to gin up the masses with their pitchforks and torches. "Get 'em!". And this insanity happens on the right almost as much.

    Did you guys know that Herbert Hoover was a wildly successful businessman before being elected and ran on a right wing style "populist" message? He also had many investments in Russia.

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  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    david,
    China was just an example of what could and has happened. They only supply about 11% of our steel needs but we only produce about 10% of our own needs. Ten percent is not enough and anything we put into war equipment should have the assured integrity needed without further testing by the purchaser.
    Was Danfoss using Chinese steel? If so was it good quality?
    Aside from the possibility of poor quality steel we could be cut off completely.
    And the military has high specs, in fact I have a friend who does metallurgy for Lockheed Martin.

    As for Danfoss, they are a global company, and therefore get their metals from many sources, depending on where the factory is, and what the product is.

    Do you think we are going to simultaneously go to war with Canada, Mexico and the EU? Basically, if our steel supply was cut off due to war, we would be screwed anyways because it would mean the whole world is after us... aka, not going to happen. Stop listening to fear mongering.

  10. #33
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    Brian,
    I don't like tariffs either. I just think we are in the position now where we need to preserve some capability for steel production. I used to write specs for government work and buy America was included. That caused problems then (1990's) and exceptions had to be given in order to build the projects. I'm sure it is worse now. The problems extend beyond initial purchase to resupply of parts or materials.
    David,
    No I don't expect to be at war with everyone but if a major war breaks out some of the countries would cut us off in favor of their own increased needs.
    You guys have valid points and there will certainly be a down side. Ideally the countries slapping unreasonable tariffs on our goods will back off. Remember they are doing it for their own benefit and the results of their tariffs have devastated our steel and aluminum industries.

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  12. #34
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    Wayne, I am all for insuring trade is indeed fair, but enforcement of trade agreements/regulations is the answer, not tariffs. And regardless, IP protection, or lack there of, is a far greater threat to our economy and indirectly jobs than commodity inports are. It’s not even close.

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  14. #35
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    Tariffs are bad free trade is good the devil is in the details. there are millions of ways to cheat.

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    I worked in a lot of manufacturing plants around here during the mid to late 90s up till about 2013 and what I saw happen was a switch from long term employees of the manufacturers to the manufacturers bringing in labor companies. The plant employees are employees of the labor contractors and not of the plant itself. Low paying jobs with poor benefits. A lot of the jobs are temp jobs. They bring in people for unskilled work and get rid of them after 120 days. No benefits.... and the labor companies keep these people on a cycle... 120 days here... 120 there..... if that....

    I have also witnessed machines taking the place of employees. We used to work with the plants setting new machines providing cooling ventilation etc... for them...... I remember asking a japanese guy once about a big machine we were working on... and what it did...... his answer was that it replaced 3 workers....... lol

    Manufacturing might make a comeback some day....... but its not going to be anything like the plants of yesterday when you had a career at the plant for life with benefits and a retirement. Its dog eat dog... if a machine dont replace you, once you slow down a bit they will just kick you to the curb and bring in a younger guy.
    You are on a role tonight... yes indeed, all the OEM's I worked with used at least as many temps as they do full timers. And even still, those guys don't like their jobs, nor make all that much. Last I checked brazers were making between 13-17/hr depending on their skill level here in GA at the refrigeration OEMs. Enough to live on, sure, but without health insurance it ain't great.

  17. #37
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    Trump is using tariff threats to re-negotiate NAFTA with Canada and Mexico.

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  19. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidadavis View Post
    How many of you guy's have worked in manufacturing? It is not good nor high paying work in this day and age.

    But let's consider further what manufacturing we want to focus on. Do we want to artificially prop up steel manufacturing with the profits from the US industries that are competitive? Or buy cheap steel and manufacture higher tech goods that sell for a higher profit margin?

    We don't need isolation, we need IP development and IP protection.
    IP, meaning internet providers? I really wasn't being a smart azz, I figured it out,,, but look at all the different things "IP" can mean: https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/IP
    if corny was a part on a washing machine,,, he'd be the agitator

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  20. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    Trump is using tariff threats to re-negotiate NAFTA with Canada and Mexico.
    The U.S has a trade surplus with Canada it only has a deficit when you count pass-through goods. Vancouver for example has a large port and gets plenty of things coming through that port on the way to the United States and the Trump administration is counting those goods as imports from Canada. They are also counting goods from Canada that are further processed and finished in the U.S so if a $500 car part is made in Canada and then turned into a $20,000 car in the U.S and then sold on does that count as part of the deficit? Looking at Trade as a zero sum game is incredibly stupid.

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