Carrier/Bryant/Payne hands on tear down with 26,000 furnace.
We all got to do tear down training on the not so famous 26,000 furnace that Carrier/Bryant/Payne has been offering since about late 2016. Was an interesting learning experience. I bet we will start to see more and more of these gems out in the field.
Models:
Carrier 59SC5A026S141208 PSC MOTOR 2 TON MAX A/C
Carrier 59SP5A026E141210 ECM MOTOR 2.5 TON MAX A/C
Bryant 915SA24026S14A-B PSC MOTOR 2 TON MAX A/C
Bryant 925SA30026E14A-B ECM MOTOR 2.5 TON MAX A/C
Payne PG95SAS24026ABAA PSC MOTOR 2 TON MAX A/C
Basically it shares an identical footprint as the existing 40,000 BTU models and is built with the same core components. Cosmetically you cannot tell the difference. They use all identical parts including the heat exchangers, burners, orifices, controls, and inducers. So how do they drop the btu's from 40K to 26K?
How they de-rate the furnace is actually quite unique:
-3 hole inducer inlet choke plate instead of the 1-3/4" opening choke installed in the 40K models (same inducer part# however).
-The use of a low capacity gas valve EF32CW215 instead of a standard capacity valve EF32CW213 on 40K models.
-Outlet/manifold gas pressure reduced to 1.3" WC to 1.8" WC as opposed to 3.0" WC to 3.8" WC on 40K model.
-1/3HP blower motor as opposed to 1/2HP motor used on 40K model. Less CFM for A/C.
-A stand alone L/P conversion kit only to be used on the low capacity valves found exclusively on 26,000 models.
-A lower pressure HK06NB032 pressure switch as opposed to the HK06NB012 used on 40K models. (maybe a cheat for the nuisance 31 trips on larger models...haha)
-A different main limit S/W 220 deg. F on 26,000 models, 165 deg F. on 40K models.
-A lower certified temperature rise rating 25-55 deg F on 26K and 40-70 deg F on 40K.
The operation is very quiet compared to other models, as the low capacity gas valve seems to be slower opening so you do not get the explosion sound on light off. The smaller HP blower motor is also fitting for size of furnace as it is significantly quieter than the 40K and 60K offerings. I noticed the 26K 1/3HP motor is a grey GE / Genteq motor instead of the black Broad Ocean motor used on all other models. Per the notes I took during the class the overall vent length is the highest of any model I ever recall of 200 FT with 2" PVC and about 70 FT with 1-1/2" (which nobody uses). Inducer is 100% identical with exception to the inlet choke plate. If you buy the service inducer it will ship with both the 3 hole and 1-3/4" inlet chokes, as well as an outlet choke for those that have an equivilent vent length 10 FT or less.
The parts list for the 26K and 40K are not very different, so should you ever make a sizing miscalculation, re-fitting new parts to make it into it the other model would not be very costly (safety ratings aside). No other models offer this much similarity.
What is not impressive is that the factory limit switch value which opens at 220 deg F for the 26,000 models, allowed the primary HX panels to glow orange on their 90 degree rear side where they transition from the first pass to their second pass. A coil condensate pan would be in close proximity to this, and thus would make one heck of a smell when they start to melt. Not sure why the limit takes so long as blower failures / seizures are real life events. There also an abnormal heat pattern on all the newer primary heat exchangers where the 90 degree transition is located on the rear of the primary panels. However this will only be known in the future as they are not old enough to really notice if there will be any failures.
The secondary heat exchangers look quite stout and robust. Stainless tube /and aluminum fin with good build quality from what I could see of it. They are still using some kind of fiberglass foil to seal the outlet panel of the primary, and this can really produce a foul burning smell in addition to the manufacturing oils for a short while after it is initially installed. The smell can be quite alarming.
Thank you Salmike.....It's threads like this one that make this forum the best resource for the people working out in the field.
I've got a quick question that maybe you know the answer to. I'm currently replacing the Primary cell inlet panel on a Bryant Product #350AAV036060FASA and I asked my local distributor if there was any special gaskets or sealants that I'll be needing to complete the repair. Answer was no...... Well, the instructions are calling for a special type of RTV and PAM cooking spray. I can understand a special RTV but PAM cooking spray? The instructions stress that no substitutions be used. This is something that would be nice to know ahead of time.
I’ve assembled and replaced dozens of Bryant heat exchangers. I’ve never used any type of sealant when assembling the primary panel to the cells. The toughest part is getting the holes lined up, it sucks. I’ve even broken screws off before and didn’t have any issues.
The biggest thing to look out for is some models have an air baffle between the secondary and primary at the rear of the heat exchanger. It’s basically a piece of sheet metal that is the width of the heat exchanger and about 4-5 inches wide. The distributor does not send this plate with the new components. If you don’t install this plate in the new heat exchanger the unit will trip high limit. And the only fix is to pull the heat exchanger, take the coupling box apart and re-install the plate. Getting all that nice new silicone off really sucks.
Not every model has them, and the distributor doesn’t tell you if it has one. I liked to assemble them at home, which isn’t a problem unless you need the plate.
I now check to see if the unit has the plate when I’m on site the first time to see if I can assemble at hone or need to do it on site.
Thank you very much Billydoughnuts. Like I mentioned before, this forum is awesome!! It's an invaluable resource to have. When I started in the trade we didn't have the internet or cell phones.
Billydoughnuts brings up an interesting point about Carrier/Bryant. Why must "we" build the heat exchanger assembly in the field? I believe them to be the only mfg to do this. Everyone else ships it complete,( I may get corrected here) gaskets and all. Last 90+ heat exchanger i quoted, to get everything it was gonna take a week and parts were coming from about 3 separate locations. Very easy for problems to happen if you ask me. Even the draft fans come with separate parts. Which I've had to order IDM and gasket separate from Lennox also. Manufacturers don't make it easy sometimes.
I've been told multiple times for a IDM that gaskets are to be field supplied, high temp RTV is recommended. I hate doing this, especially when a customer calls up the boss screaming that I glued their furnace together
Billydoughnuts brings up an interesting point about Carrier/Bryant. Why must "we" build the heat exchanger assembly in the field? I believe them to be the only mfg to do this. Everyone else ships it complete,( I may get corrected here) gaskets and all. Last 90+ heat exchanger i quoted, to get everything it was gonna take a week and parts were coming from about 3 separate locations. Very easy for problems to happen if you ask me. Even the draft fans come with separate parts. Which I've had to order IDM and gasket separate from Lennox also. Manufacturers don't make it easy sometimes.
I think I know the answer to this one. Bryant does not want you to replace the heat exchanger, they prefer you replace the entire unit and give the owner the weak credit for doing so.
Just recently I replaced the HTX for a little old lady in her late 70s. I was able to do the entire job for the price of a service call because I knew I would get labor credit and I could complete the job in that time. The distributor would prefer I give her credit toward a new furnace but that would’ve cost her at least $2000 when I could get her furnace running safely for $90. Where is the payback on a new furnace for that customer? Doesn’t exist.
I get that many contractors do not want to do the replacements, and if they are in an attic or crawl space they realistically cannot be done for the labor credit given. When I run into these situations I let the customer know that there will be additional costs involved. But every single time, a new HTX is less than an entire new furnace. And in the case of the old lady, her savings on a new furnace allowed her to get central AC which she had been thinking about for some time 😉
Thank you Salmike.....It's threads like this one that make this forum the best resource for the people working out in the field.
I've got a quick question that maybe you know the answer to. I'm currently replacing the Primary cell inlet panel on a Bryant Product #350AAV036060FASA and I asked my local distributor if there was any special gaskets or sealants that I'll be needing to complete the repair. Answer was no...... Well, the instructions are calling for a special type of RTV and PAM cooking spray. I can understand a special RTV but PAM cooking spray? The instructions stress that no substitutions be used. This is something that would be nice to know ahead of time.
Any help with this would be great. Thank you
I apologize I missed your post. I've been inactive on here for a while.
So the furnace you are referring to us considered to be called the "Legacy 40 Inch". This particular model is very robust with exception to the secondary HX design.
Carrier/Bryant/Payne specifies RTV 162 which used to be a Dow Corning formula that was more of an adhesive than a high temp silicon. The goal is to bond the rear coupling components and to safeguard against the acidic condensate from eating the RTV. Industry professionals have been substituting without any issues, but for the price and the quantity the factory recommends I see no reason to substitute.
For clarification the front cell inlet panels have no parts that require any type of RTV sealer, or gaskets. The primary HX panels butt right up against the foil insulation on new inlet panels, and if resuing the old panel the primary cells have a little square patch section of insulation for every cell. No sealer should ever be used on this junction. The burner box "DOES" have a fiberglass gasket to bond it to the inlet panel, and is included in the box with the new panel.
The RTV is used to seal the coupling box cover to the cell outlet panels at the rear of the furnace, and you should NOT use any release agent there. You want it to seal permenantly and bond firmly to all metal.
Th PAM cooking spray called out in a lot of carrier instructions are used as nothing more than a release agent so the RTV sealer will not adhere to the surface. I highly recommend applying the PAM cooking spray to the back of the inducer flange, and apply the carrier RTV to the coupling box sealing surface instead and mate them together. In the future the inducer will detach easily and not damage the mating surface. If a release agent is not used, often the bond can be so good, that the flange is cracked or broken upon removal.
Billydoughnuts brings up an interesting point about Carrier/Bryant. Why must "we" build the heat exchanger assembly in the field? I believe them to be the only mfg to do this. Everyone else ships it complete,( I may get corrected here) gaskets and all. Last 90+ heat exchanger i quoted, to get everything it was gonna take a week and parts were coming from about 3 separate locations. Very easy for problems to happen if you ask me. Even the draft fans come with separate parts. Which I've had to order IDM and gasket separate from Lennox also. Manufacturers don't make it easy sometimes.
You and Billydougnuts bring up an excellent point. Your frustrations are equally shared by us who have to support the product at a wholesale level. The handling, ordering, stocking, and shipping part of it is equally as frustrating.
To better understand why this occurs you have to understand that carrier uses multiple blower drives, and multiple motor types with each furnace tier.
Example 80K BTU:
There is a 1200 and 1400 CFM blower drive offered. With that there is also a PSC motor, and a variable speed communicating ECM. Not only did the motor change but the wheel and fan scroll width was different as well. That same 80K heat exchanger did not always contain the air baffle plate depending on what drive package that furnace had. This makes stocking 2 of every possible HX combo needed to support the product. One assembly with the blocking plate, and one assembly without. Also there is a very special 40K btu model that uses 2 primaries coupled to a 120K btu secondary to get monster efficiency out of it.
Another assumption is that stocking large boxes / crates of heat exchangers is more difficult to handle than splitting them to individual boxes.
You and Billydougnuts bring up an excellent point. Your frustrations are equally shared by us who have to support the product at a wholesale level. The handling, ordering, stocking, and shipping part of it is equally as frustrating.
To better understand why this occurs you have to understand that carrier uses multiple blower drives, and multiple motor types with each furnace tier.
Example 80K BTU:
There is a 1200 and 1400 CFM blower drive offered. With that there is also a PSC motor, and a variable speed communicating ECM. Not only did the motor change but the wheel and fan scroll width was different as well. That same 80K heat exchanger did not always contain the air baffle plate depending on what drive package that furnace had. This makes stocking 2 of every possible HX combo needed to support the product. One assembly with the blocking plate, and one assembly without. Also there is a very special 40K btu model that uses 2 primaries coupled to a 120K btu secondary to get monster efficiency out of it.
Another assumption is that stocking large boxes / crates of heat exchangers is more difficult to handle than splitting them to individual boxes.
For sure very frustrating in all aspects.
Thanks for the wholesale insight, still frustrating for a condensing HX to come in 9 different parts. From a liability standpoint i see no reason a mfg would leave this in the hands of the technician to assemble. also human error on the counter guy, dyslexia in it's lightest form can crush a good plan. I was just at the Carrier dist today to pick up an OEM 5 ton blower motor, model # ended in something like 3212 and he transposed 2 digits and tried to give me a 1/3 hp motor instead of 3/4, and then wanted $+ than he quoted. He knew he made a mistake too because he called himself on it as soon as I got there.Goodman doesn't do it, nor Rheem, Trane..... You are also correct by the time you buy all the parts and pay all the freight put a little with it and you can have a new unit
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Originally Posted by theoldscroll
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