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Thread: Best retrofit refrigerant for R22??

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Without a receiver all the sight glass is good for is as a moisture indicator!

    and even that is debatable!
    Exactly!!! I figured if the dot was green your good! Lol

  2. #62
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    we've used 427 A twice with no calls back about an year & half ago on an leak repair completely flat systems & recharged @ about 80 % capacity new valve cores & new LL dryer of course cooling great when we left out that day ....but now we just use 407C with new compressors poe bc we can buy it @ about 1/2 the costs of the 427A or otherwise wed be using the 427A bc it seems more misable without an oil change ??? but we did a lot of research before hand & really like both but 472 better if not for the costs

  3. #63
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    407c is cheap. I use a lot of it

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpbnl View Post
    Yeah, mixing the two oils is not a good idea. The compressors name plate indicate they were charged with 70 oz. of mineral oil. We plan to remove the compressors and measure what we take out of the system. After a nitrogen blow out of the coils and heat exchangers, leak check and evacuation down to a least 250 microns we will then charge with POE based on name plate. The residual mineral trace oil should not be a issue. We will then charge the system with R-422b which can handle some MO.
    Evacuate BEFORE adding the oil?

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyD View Post
    Evacuate BEFORE adding the oil?

    Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk
    Yes, POE is very hydroscopic. On this job the unit was open to the atmosphere. New dryers are installed. To minimize the POE coming in contact with moisture, evacuate your system after leak checking. Since we have a measured amount of oil you can break the vacuum by drawing out the oil before adding the new refrigerant.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpbnl View Post
    Yes, POE is very hydroscopic. On this job the unit was open to the atmosphere. New dryers are installed. To minimize the POE coming in contact with moisture, evacuate your system after leak checking. Since we have a measured amount of oil you can break the vacuum by drawing out the oil before adding the new refrigerant.
    If you suspect contaminated oil (Haven't run across that a whole hell of a lot) change it before pulling a vacuum. Why open the system after!

  7. #67
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    I do oil changes before the evac. Oils do mix. Dont believe the hype.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincompressor View Post
    I do oil changes before the evac. Oils do mix. Dont believe the hype.
    Same here, I always pull on fresh oil! I do a bit of chiller work. Even with mineral oil, you should see how much comes out of it when the vacuum gets deep through the sight glass.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyD View Post
    Same here, I always pull on fresh oil! I do a bit of chiller work. Even with mineral oil, you should see how much comes out of it when the vacuum gets deep through the sight glass.

    Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk
    Chillers are a completely different story!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Chillers are a completely different story!
    I know, just making a reference that even if the oil is fresh out of a container, there still may be some crap in it.

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  11. #71
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    I recently replaced the R-22 on a 10 ton de-humidification unit with R-422b (NU-22). I did remove the mineral oil from both Copleweld 5 ton compressors, replaced with POE. I felt the NU-22 could handle the residual mineral oil throughout the system. The pressures were very similar to R-22.
    The NU-22 has a 10 degree glide. I followed the dew TP chart and with my digital gauges, I was seeing a very high superheat on both system (24 degrees) with a clear sight glass. The system had Sporlan SVE-4-CP100 (4 ton) valves. I ran the adjustment stem all the way out and could get no lower. When I checked with Sporlan they said that R-422b would require SVE-8-CP100 (8 ton)valves to maintain proper refrigerant flow to the evap. I guess if you have a piston expansion device it could be changed out. If you have cap tubes your screwed.
    I did change out the Schrader valve cores and service caps.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpbnl View Post
    I recently replaced the R-22 on a 10 ton de-humidification unit with R-422b (NU-22). I did remove the mineral oil from both Copleweld 5 ton compressors, replaced with POE. I felt the NU-22 could handle the residual mineral oil throughout the system. The pressures were very similar to R-22.
    The NU-22 has a 10 degree glide. I followed the dew TP chart and with my digital gauges, I was seeing a very high superheat on both system (24 degrees) with a clear sight glass. The system had Sporlan SVE-4-CP100 (4 ton) valves. I ran the adjustment stem all the way out and could get no lower. When I checked with Sporlan they said that R-422b would require SVE-8-CP100 (8 ton)valves to maintain proper refrigerant flow to the evap. I guess if you have a piston expansion device it could be changed out. If you have cap tubes your screwed.
    I did change out the Schrader valve cores and service caps.
    So what's your next course of action ?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpbnl View Post
    I recently replaced the R-22 on a 10 ton de-humidification unit with R-422b (NU-22). I did remove the mineral oil from both Copleweld 5 ton compressors, replaced with POE. I felt the NU-22 could handle the residual mineral oil throughout the system. The pressures were very similar to R-22.
    The NU-22 has a 10 degree glide. I followed the dew TP chart and with my digital gauges, I was seeing a very high superheat on both system (24 degrees) with a clear sight glass. The system had Sporlan SVE-4-CP100 (4 ton) valves. I ran the adjustment stem all the way out and could get no lower. When I checked with Sporlan they said that R-422b would require SVE-8-CP100 (8 ton)valves to maintain proper refrigerant flow to the evap. I guess if you have a piston expansion device it could be changed out. If you have cap tubes your screwed.
    I did change out the Schrader valve cores and service caps.
    Please post where it says double the valve size!

    I call BS

  14. #74
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    Need bigger expansion valves with R-422b retrofit

    I got this directly from Parker/Sporlan:

    Tom,
    Thank you for the clarification. For R-422B with evaporator temperature of 40 F, condensing temp of 110 F, liquid temp 90 F, and a refrigerant distributor the valve should be the
    SVE-8-GA or ERVE-8-GA
    Or if you prefer the CP100 charge, then use SVD-8-CP100 or ERVE-8-CP100.

    The SVE-4 would be undersized for this application.

    See below for results of Virtual Engineer Selection program. This program can be found at
    http://solutions.parker.com/sporlanvirtualengineer
    Thank you

  15. #75
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    United supply, months back, didn't even sell r 22, only nu22.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTP99 View Post
    So what's your next course of action ?
    We are going to changed out the expansion valves.

  17. #77
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    I've done a few retro fits.
    But it's not my go to solution.
    I've installed r407 condensers
    Not my go to solution.
    My go-to solution is install a new R410 evaporator and condenser.
    It even comes with a manufacturer warranty.

  18. #78
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    R427a when mineral oil
    R407c Poe oil
    Make it simple and label it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpbnl View Post
    I got this directly from Parker/Sporlan:

    Tom,
    Thank you for the clarification. For R-422B with evaporator temperature of 40 F, condensing temp of 110 F, liquid temp 90 F, and a refrigerant distributor the valve should be the
    SVE-8-GA or ERVE-8-GA
    Or if you prefer the CP100 charge, then use SVD-8-CP100 or ERVE-8-CP100.

    The SVE-4 would be undersized for this application.

    See below for results of Virtual Engineer Selection program. This program can be found at
    http://solutions.parker.com/sporlanvirtualengineer
    Thank you
    There's way too much disinformation surrounding R-22 replacements, their performance, what it/isn't acceptable, etc.

    The fact is, as someone stated....there are NO drop-ins (as drop-in implies you can remove the R-22, replace it with R-Drop in, and walk away without any further effort). Some of the replacements might perform similarly to R-22 in some aspects, but not in other aspects. Some don't perform similarly to R-22 in any aspects.

    The chart below shows some of the popular R-22 replacements, and their performance in an AC application compared to R-22. Note the comparison in (1) capacity compared to R-22, (2) mass flow rate compared to R-22, and (3) efficiency compared to R-22.

    Name:  Refrig Comparisons.jpg
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    Capacity is pretty self explanatory. For example, why would one ever consider using R-417A or R-424A with their 14% capacity loss compared to R-22....unless, your distributor is telling you it's the perfect "drop in" for R-22.

    R-428A has great capacity compared to R-22, but with an additional 70% mass flow requirement...TEV and distributor replacement guaranteed. Possible piping modifications, solenoid valve replacement, and who knows what the compressor capacity will be. Bad choice.

    On paper....the two best choices, from a capacity, mass flow and efficiency comparison, are R-407C and R-427A. In reality, there's another factor to consider: Price and Availability. R-407C is out of patent, and is very widely distributed...and inexpensive. R-427A is under patent, and is less available, and more expensive. One additional comment about R-427A...their literature states that an oil change (to POE) might not be necessary. R-427A does NOT contain hydrocarbon components, which are the components that allow some blends to be used with mineral oil. While you might "get by" using mineral oil in very close coupled systems, this is bad advice...and likely added as a marketing piece to gain sales. Again, don't be fooled by the disinformation.

    R-422B has an 11% capacity loss, and an 18% increase in mass flow requirement. That, combined with the different pressure/temperature relationship, will result in a much greater pressure drop across the refrigerant distributor nozzle.

    Part of the TEV capacity comes from pressure drop across the TEV port. So, if a greater portion of the total available pressure drop occurs across the distributor nozzle, it means there's less pressure drop available for the TEV...with the resulting drop in TEV capacity.

    Below is a properly selected distributor nozzle (#3 orifice) for the 5 ton R-22 system, using the Sporlan selection program. Next, the existing R-22 nozzle is selected for performance with R-422B. What was a reasonable 37 psi pressure drop across the distributor tubes/nozzle with R-22 is now a 60 psi pressure drop with R-422B.

    Name:  Distributor Selection.jpg
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    Next, take a look at the TEV selection for the existing R-22 system. It appears the 4 ton valve is a little undersized, as it's operating at 113% of rated capacity. It's definitely a curious choice for the original installation. The 5 ton valve is a better selection, and it's operating at 98% of rated capacity.

    The same system, utilizing R-422B, requires an 8 ton TEV, and it's operating at 96% of rated capacity. The increased mass flow requirement of R-422B, the higher pressure drop across the existing R-22 distributor, and the resulting lower pressure drop across the TEV (due to the increased distributor pressure drop + the result of the pressure/temperature relationship for R-422B) are the reasons for the existing R-22 TEV being seriously undersized.

    Name:  TEV Selection.jpg
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    This is why the term "drop-in" is such an overused, meaningless term. When doing a conversion, it's best to do a complete survey and see what the compressor capacity is with the new refrigerant, see if components such as TEV and/or refrigerant distributor need replacing, and in refrigerants that require significantly more refrigerant mass flow determine whether pipe sizing changes and/or other components will require replacement.

    And if Distributor A is the sole agent selling R-###….and they tell you it's the best thing on the market...do some homework to verify whether they are telling you the truth, or simply trying to make a sale.

    Final note: There's no issue in mixing mineral oil and POE. There is a lot of field experience with mixed oils in systems without any issue at all.

    As further evidence, R-422D was being used as an R-22 replacement in supermarkets some years ago. R-422D is marketed as a blend that can operate with mineral oil...this because of some hydrocarbon additives to the refrigerant. But the reality was, in some applications with long/complex piping runs, there were oil logging issues in evaporators.

    Copeland's solution: Add some POE to the system, as the POE will "grab" onto the mineral oil and assist in returning it to the compressor.

    Name:  Copeland.jpg
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  20. #80
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    Awsome breakdown Bunny. Do you want to come give a talk to our local RSES chapter monthly educational meeting here in Ks.? Just kidding. Again, great use of facts.

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