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  1. #1
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    Java Webstart kind of a fix

    So, I had high hopes for this and overall it is better than before. But after installing on it on probably 50 machines now I've come to understand this only really addresses that lack of browser plugin support. You still will be bombarded with Java update notices, and once the update is done new restricted jars are required. Now the install button to automate the jar file install is nice, but when the user doesn't have admin rights it becomes useless. Now back to having the IT dept involved like one of my sites with 30 computer accessing they're less then happy!! Also I have one computer out of those 50 that refused to associate the JNLP file type to the web start launcher.I found the fix on here and was able to get it to work. Well after the recent java update to that machine it's back to not associating the file type correctly. So I tried to apply the previous fix, and this machine refuses to let me choose the web start launcher for this file, and defaults to a notepad file extension. I have tried everything under the sun and it just dosen't like it!! I guess they couldn't completely fix this?? Helps push N4 and HTML I guess.

  2. #2
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    N4, as it stands, still won't convert 75% of the GUI elements used in the JAVA-based interface to HTML-5. There are only two elements specifically designed for HTML-5 right now and converting existing graphics will result in you losing the majority of the functionality of your graphics without having to redesign them to conform to HTML standards.

    Tridium is working to overcome the JAVA dependency but N4 is not a "fix all" option right now.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnerDapt, Inc. View Post
    N4, as it stands, still won't convert 75% of the GUI elements used in the JAVA-based interface to HTML-5. There are only two elements specifically designed for HTML-5 right now and converting existing graphics will result in you losing the majority of the functionality of your graphics without having to redesign them to conform to HTML standards.



    Tridium is working to overcome the JAVA dependency but N4 is not a "fix all" option right now.
    Yes I took the N4 certification about a year ago. Lots of stuff broken, and really wasn't ready for prime time. We have stayed with the AX platform for the most part. Java problems have been by far the #1 tech support issue I have had to deal with since starting with Tridium 7 years ago. I had higher hopes for the webstart release, but it appears it will be riddled with problems also.

  4. #4
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    We have been using AX with HX views on sites that are sick of Java issues. Not prefect, but its alot less headache than dealing with all the UI issues in N4's HTML5 profile.

    Not to mention the functionality on N4's HTML5 profile is about 25% of AX's PX views. Nothing like charging for the upgrade, then they find out 75% of what they had is no longer available. UI in 4.2 is a steaming pile of poo yet IMO. But I'm sure all the parasitic SMA fees will really speed development like they claimed....
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    We have been using AX with HX views on sites that are sick of Java issues. Not prefect, but its alot less headache than dealing with all the UI issues in N4's HTML5 profile.

    Not to mention the functionality on N4's HTML5 profile is about 25% of AX's PX views. Nothing like charging for the upgrade, then they find out 75% of what they had is no longer available. UI in 4.2 is a steaming pile of poo yet IMO. But I'm sure all the parasitic SMA fees will really speed development like they claimed....
    Yes,
    I have used the hx profile also and think it sucks. But your probably right its better then the constant issues. I'm just not sure what tridium was thinking on N4. The graphics library being svgs is cool but the images look like atari 64 when everybody is using xbox 360s!! 99 percent of my customers judge tridium by the UI. They could care less about workbench and most never use it. Access to the system everytime you login should be #1 I would think?? Webstart will still have us fighting java issues for sure, and with N4 still a far cry from what it should be I'm stuck fixing java issues or leaving a UI that is useable but not great. Keeps me busy I guess!!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnerDapt, Inc. View Post
    N4, as it stands, still won't convert 75% of the GUI elements used in the JAVA-based interface to HTML-5. There are only two elements specifically designed for HTML-5 right now and converting existing graphics will result in you losing the majority of the functionality of your graphics without having to redesign them to conform to HTML standards.

    Tridium is working to overcome the JAVA dependency but N4 is not a "fix all" option right now.

    What makes up that 75%? My experience has been that end user views have not been all that lacking in 4.2. Still the occasional graphical bug however. The scheduler leaves something to be desired, especially since it looks totally different when you are viewing it in workbench.

    Webstart has solved most of our issues, but it isn't 100% strightforward. On OSX it was a nightmare figuring out how to get it to run as it appears you cannot automate the process of downloading and installing the unlimited strength files for JAVA.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSLLC4Life View Post
    What makes up that 75%? My experience has been that end user views have not been all that lacking in 4.2. Still the occasional graphical bug however. The scheduler leaves something to be desired, especially since it looks totally different when you are viewing it in workbench.

    Webstart has solved most of our issues, but it isn't 100% strightforward. On OSX it was a nightmare figuring out how to get it to run as it appears you cannot automate the process of downloading and installing the unlimited strength files for JAVA.
    Yes!! Why can't they just automatically install them. It obviously knows you don't have them if it prompts a screen asking if you want to install them. Most of my sites are IT managed, and a large amount of accessing computers don't have admin rights so the install of the restricted jars becomes useless until IT gets involved. I've had many unhappy IT guys dealing with this!! Webstart solved the problem until a java update is available and somebody clicks update then I'm back to the same garbage as before with the restricted jars. I actually asked that question on here. What happens when a java update is available?? Will we need new restricted jars, and the answer from most was no. Well that's not correct so really all webstart fixed was the browsers dropping the plugin support.

  8. #8
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    I've been disappointed with N4 as well. Still pretty rough around the edges, even if you keep PX.
    BajaScript 2.0 is nice. We're using it to build our interfaces in HTML5 from scratch. It will look really nice and work really well when we're done, but it's super labor intensive to do it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norriski Tech View Post
    Yes!! Why can't they just automatically install them. It obviously knows you don't have them if it prompts a screen asking if you want to install them. Most of my sites are IT managed, and a large amount of accessing computers don't have admin rights so the install of the restricted jars becomes useless until IT gets involved. I've had many unhappy IT guys dealing with this!! Webstart solved the problem until a java update is available and somebody clicks update then I'm back to the same garbage as before with the restricted jars. I actually asked that question on here. What happens when a java update is available?? Will we need new restricted jars, and the answer from most was no. Well that's not correct so really all webstart fixed was the browsers dropping the plugin support.
    Windows's own security issues. By default admin rights are required to write anything to Program Files or Program Files (x86), which is where the JRE resides. Software installers are generally expected to set the permissions on all the folders, registry keys, etc. that they will need their application to be able to access. This is why protections get escalated to Administrator level (and thus a UAC prompt is issued) when those installers run. The Jurisdiction policy files are getting replaced when the user updates Java. What I don't get is that if the user is able to update java, then he/she should have the rights to replace the jurisdiction policy files.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by digo View Post
    Windows's own security issues. By default admin rights are required to write anything to Program Files or Program Files (x86), which is where the JRE resides. Software installers are generally expected to set the permissions on all the folders, registry keys, etc. that they will need their application to be able to access. This is why protections get escalated to Administrator level (and thus a UAC prompt is issued) when those installers run. The Jurisdiction policy files are getting replaced when the user updates Java. What I don't get is that if the user is able to update java, then he/she should have the rights to replace the jurisdiction policy files.
    Yes,
    I guess it was just another rant!! I understand what is happening with the admin rights. I can't believe after the horrible wait for 3.8.111ui that this is what it turned out to be. So many weak solutions for Java problems in the past, this just feels the same to me. If they would approach this from the low end users perspective they might have something. I mean 90 percent of my customers don't know what JAVA is and could care less. I sat and watched a customer today try to install the restricted jars and got frustrated with just a couple of basic tasks. Her comment was this is stupid, and I shouldn't have to do this. My comment was your right. I can't think of a site that I have installed that hasn't called with java issues ,and I just want it to go away!! I know some people use the hx profile, and I have also. The schedule editor, trend viewer, bound label edging, gradient color issues. It just a workaround, but lame solution to me.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSLLC4Life View Post
    What makes up that 75%? My experience has been that end user views have not been all that lacking in 4.2
    I have a customer that does alot of their own UI work on a large school campus. Simple changes they could carry them out in the webui, not possible with N4. Add points, setup additional export tags, push the changes in html5?

    I have some large customers that constantly worked in the nav tree, dive into wire sheets, pallets, bath editor, etc and would carry out small adds in house. How many property sheets work in N4? Discover anything?

    Stuff that renders fine in WB, takes hours to sort out for the webui as every other element gets positioned all over hell.

    For simple customers that only want the simple pages, sure it works fine. If you have customers that really dive into the system and used what was available in AX webui, they will likely be disappointed with this "upgrade".


    If you only used 25% of what AX had to offer in the webui, N4 will do 100% of what you expect.
    Last edited by orion242; 05-11-2017 at 08:31 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  12. #12
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    One of my customers got sick of the whole tridium/java update issues and is using something called iced tea and it works.

  13. #13
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    Does anyone know if Java Web Start works with Single Sign On in AX? My gut tells me know because of the JLNP file that’s created.

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