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If the garage is not heated find another route for the pipes or heat the garage. Then that setup might work. Below freezing below and above the pipes with no heat source no amount of insulation will prevent freezing without a heat source. Insulation only slows heat transfer it does not create any heat. If you dont run the water for hours temps will equalize and pipes will freeze. You could insulate a duct and run the pipes through with one end open to heat. Then maybe put a heat tape through. I would not want to put heat tape on and bury it in the ceiling without being able to get to it.
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Originally Posted by
jacobsond
If the garage is not heated find another route for the pipes or heat the garage. Then that setup might work. Below freezing below and above the pipes with no heat source no amount of insulation will prevent freezing without a heat source. Insulation only slows heat transfer it does not create any heat. If you dont run the water for hours temps will equalize and pipes will freeze. You could insulate a duct and run the pipes through with one end open to heat. Then maybe put a heat tape through. I would not want to put heat tape on and bury it in the ceiling without being able to get to it.
I'm with you 100% on the fact that insulation will not keep it from freezing. But as we all know, the rate of temp change is a function of insulation value, temp difference between two surfaces, and amount of surface area (will need to look up exact formula). So if my finished product has a R50 and my water line is say 55* from the city, and it 0* in attic, I feel I would have a good 24 hours before pipe gets to freezing temp.
Also, in my area, unless a garage door is open for an extended period, garages hardly ever drop below freezing so I would have some slight gain from the garage.
At this point I'm honestly thinking this whole cold water line was compromised 3 years ago when the house was empty and not winterized. Outside temps dropped to -15 for about 3 days straight. When it warmed the pipe busted back towards the bedroom of the house. But in those conditions, what's to say the pipe didn't freeze in other areas and bulge and weaken the pipe? It just so happened to bust now! I feel confident after I get these new lines in and insulated to a R50 or 60 I will be safe. Plus are water is being used on a regular basis. Last toilet use would be around 11 at night and then again at 515 in morning. Think it would be hard to freeze when 0 outside on a 3/4 line that's insulated.
Design temp for me is 5 so it's not like we're getting Maine or Canada type cold.
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Originally Posted by
hurtinhvac
Heat tape...small unit heater in the garage for extreme periods?
Is pex immune to freeze bursts?
the pipe yes, the fittings no
Nest is POO!!
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Got the ceiling down and all the wet insulation out. New line in and start of insulation. Once up there and really started digging around, I'm lost as to what these plumbers were thinking. I can't really explain what I found in words. I might start a thread asking any plumbers on here there thoughts after I draw something out. I know a little plumbing but damn I'm lost on this setup.
Rolled pex sucks to try and make it straight. Did what I could. It's all getting covered in 18" of insulation soon anyway.
At least this made me throw some stuff away. The wife liked that. And motivated me to install a new 2' led in my attic. And prep a spot for an attic ladder/pull down stairs. So if nothing else it got me to get a few things on my bucket list done lol.
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Insulation still doesn't produce heat.
“You don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour.” Jim Rohn
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That is such a mess. You should check the other parts of your house too. Better check your kitchen
Last edited by Dad; 10-07-2020 at 09:29 AM.
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i would use copper pex is good but it brakes just as much if cold enough.
Copper is the proper fix
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Interesting thing...
Down here in metro Atlanta...
We are not allowed to run water pipes in any exterior wall or in the attic...
Wonder what the local good old boys were thinking, when they wrote the codes???
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
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yall keep digging up these old nasty memories.
I had almost forgot about this but the pictures sure brought it back lol
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Post Likes - 5 Likes, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
jbhenergy
yall keep digging up these old nasty memories.
I had almost forgot about this but the pictures sure brought it back lol
Time to clean the garage again? 
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I'm going to kill this plumber
Originally Posted by
pecmsg
Time to clean the garage again?
So maybe it is. I’m supposed to be slow right now but our weather is t sure what to do so I’m still chasi g service calls. Typically I get a good couple of slow days spring and fall to clean it out top to bottom
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Originally Posted by
jbhenergy
So maybe it is. I’m supposed to be slow right now but our weather is t sure what to do so I’m still chasi g service calls. Typically I get a good couple of slow days spring and fall to clean it out top to bottom
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Get it done while you can, thursdays gonna be rough, weekends gonna get flooded.
"Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."
"Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."
"Just get it done son."
Dad adjusted
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Originally Posted by
hvacvegas
Get it done while you can, thursdays gonna be rough, weekends gonna get flooded.
Just saw the 10 day. 70’s until Thursday then a 36 on sat.....
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Originally Posted by
jbhenergy
I don't know who in there right mind thought it was a good idea to run the main cold, hot supply, and hot return in the attic, but the dude should not exist anymore. These lines are wrapped in 1" pipe insulation, covered with blow in, then cover in r19 batts butt yet this happens.
Have a HW unit in my attic that the 3/4" copper had no insulation ran right to it. In the far NE so yea, it gets below freezing. Even insulated, I don't trust it. 2 story house plus basement, I don't need a shower in the attic. How this house stayed dry ~18yrs before I got, beyond me. Only thing I can figure is it had non-programmable stats and they probably kept the same temp 24/7. Leave for long vaca and setback, flooded house installed like that.
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that setup is either a last minute add in bathroom or a very bad renovation....cold, hot then hot return tells me it was all done at one time especially with the hot return so you can have hot water right away in the bathroom...i guess running a chase below the ceiling in the corner and boxing it in was not an option...
if the electric panel is in the garage and you have room in the panel...you could do electric tankless only needing 1 cold water line to it, hot water to the rest..no return needed..
but im also curious if it was only the cold line that burst....it could be run next to the heated return pipe and wrapped in the same insulation acting as a defrost cable...hmmmmmmm....maybe...
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Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
Unlimited1
that setup is either a last minute add in bathroom or a very bad renovation....cold, hot then hot return tells me it was all done at one time especially with the hot return so you can have hot water right away in the bathroom...i guess running a chase below the ceiling in the corner and boxing it in was not an option...
if the electric panel is in the garage and you have room in the panel...you could do electric tankless only needing 1 cold water line to it, hot water to the rest..no return needed..
but im also curious if it was only the cold line that burst....it could be run next to the heated return pipe and wrapped in the same insulation acting as a defrost cable...hmmmmmmm....maybe...
This reminds me of a video I saw of a village in Alaska...
They actually have a village water system...
The water lines are buried... along with a recirculating hot water system, to keep the water lines from freezing.
The heat source... is a wood fired boiler... heating a closed loop system running along side the water supply lines.
I guess it beats hauling water in 5 gal plastic cans...
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
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@orion242, My initial thought on this is that the boiler has glycol in it to prevent the coil in the hydro air unit and the piping to the boiler from freezing in case something malfunctions on a cold day.
I'm not a fan of glycol but whenever a hydro air unit is installed in the attic it is absolutely necessary.
Last edited by HVAC_Dave_NY; 10-14-2020 at 06:00 AM.
Reason: Left out who the reply is to
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last i knew from the street meter to the water company shut off it its problem to fix not yours.
Yours would be from the start of the pipe to your home and inside it
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i have seen a 3/4ths line freeze under the right condtions at 0F but your ideas sound good what i would do is install a shut off valve that turns the home water off if it detects a leak and the monater it works with does not detect normal water use not sure of the name of if but i saw it on this old house once and they said any good plumming store would know what it was and carry it its a bit costly but saves a big flood.
imaigane if you were not home the mess you would have come home to .
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pex can burst under the right condtions seen it happen they use pex like water in my area i stick with good old copper thanks
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