Is a two stage Air conditioner worth the extra price?

[DonnieHeating]

Would like to hear your views on wether it is worth it or not? If it matters to what region your in its Vancouver for me.

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[hedrash]

Yes.

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[Cimerian]

It is always worth it. Your ac and heat are both oversized for the majority of the year. Even sized properly you don't always need 100% of your heat and air. Staging really helps solve that problem. Inverter drives do it even better.

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[DonnieHeating]

Good to know, I guess it's simular to a two stage gas Furnace as well.

What condensing units are available in inverter drives besides the ductless? I think I heard something about lennox but I steer away from that.

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[lkapigian]

The caveat is the sizing...an oversized 2 stage or vs is pointless . We are doing a job tomorrow , pulling out a 5 to Goodman a going back with a 3 to Carrier....other contractors would have just quoted a 5 ton, I new that house would not calc put to more than 3...so the cost variance between mine a there's was little....875 square foot per ton on that home

[Cimerian]

Good to know, I guess it's simular to a two stage gas Furnace as well.

What condensing units are available in inverter drives besides the ductless? I think I heard something about lennox but I steer away from that.

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I believe most manufacturers are coming out with them. Not all are a true full variable compressor but they are still multi speed inverter drive. For example ruud/rheem is inverter drive but really it's only 3 speeds. American standard/trane inverter drive is a true variable. Most mini split types are also true variable inverter drive. I'm a big fan of Mitsubishi hyper heat systems.

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[Cimerian]

The caveat is the sizing...an oversized 2 stage or vs is pointless . We are doing a job tomorrow , pulling out a 5 to Goodman a going back with a 3 to Carrier....other contractors would have just quoted a 5 ton, I new that house would not calc put to more than 3...so the cost variance between mine a there's was little....875 square foot per ton on that home

The point behind staging is if you size an ac for 95f outdoor temp but you only hit 95f for 1 or 2 months out of the year then the rest of the year your ac is oversized. Staging works to make it much more comfortable when you are only 80-85f outside instead of the design 95f.

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[lkapigian]

The point behind staging is if you size an ac for 95f outdoor temp but you only hit 95f for 1 or 2 months out of the year then the rest of the year your ac is oversized. Staging works to make it much more comfortable when you are only 80-85f outside instead of the design 95f.

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You size a 2 stage VS or single stage the exact same way...to the 1%...you are allowed more oversize % as they do not come in 1/2 increment...arbitrarily over sizing because it can "unload" will cause problems

[taylor2]

I love when I get the chance to install trane XV20i systems. Some customers are concerned with the cost of repair down the road when warranties are over, and I can fully understand that. But the comfort gained by modulating systems is worth the extra $ if it's available. One of the ways I explain it is buying a car. Most people who can afford it own newer cars that operate entirely different than cars of the past. The end result is the same, point a to point b, but you're spending the extra money for style, comfort, fuel economy, etc. So why wouldn't you do the same with your heating and cooling system. Your day to day life will be highly impacted by your furnace and ac and you'll likely have the system longer than most people keep cars today. My point being cars, trucks, and suvs today cost upwards of $30-50k, why will people spend so much on a vehicle that won't last 10 years but can't bring themselves to spend a fraction of that on the system that will keep then the most comfortable in their home year around? And if sized, installed, and maintained properly should last at least twice as long.

[Cimerian]

You size a 2 stage VS or single stage the exact same way...to the 1%...you are allowed more oversize % as they do not come in 1/2 increment...arbitrarily over sizing because it can "unload" will cause problems

I'm not saying to oversize a system and allow the staging to make up for the oversize. I'm saying a properly sized system is oversized the majority of the year in most areas. Staging helps prevent it from being oversized in april or may when it would be sized perfectly in june or july. Also even in june and july it's not 95f all day. At night temps still drop and during the night it is still oversized even though its sized perfectly. The point why staging is always worth it is that you do not need 100% cooling or 100% heating all the time.

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[lkapigian]

I'm not saying to oversize a system and allow the staging to make up for the oversize. I'm saying a properly sized system is oversized the majority of the year in most areas. Staging helps prevent it from being oversized in april or may when it would be sized perfectly in june or july. Also even in june and july it's not 95f all day. At night temps still drop and during the night it is still oversized even though its sized perfectly. The point why staging is always worth it is that you do not need 100% cooling or 100% heating all the time.

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Agreed, a properly sized system is oversized under 99% of the conditions it operates under

[hedrash]

Good to know, I guess it's simular to a two stage gas Furnace as well.

What condensing units are available in inverter drives besides the ductless? I think I heard something about lennox but I steer away from that.

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Lennox makes great inverters the XC/XP20's & the XC/XP25's. In multiple tonnages. Matched with the right airhandler, rurnace & coil, they're phenomenal products. I'd people would read the instructions they would not have issues.

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[hedrash]

The thing about staging is generally speaking you need a variable speed furnace or airhandler to really get the full benefits. Usually the compressor runs at 70% & 100%.

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[teddy bear]

I live with a 3 speed gas furnace. The biggest problem is the variable air flow that goes with the heating speeds. The air distribution is dependent on the amount of air flow. Mostly quiet and adequate. I fear what will happen when something goes wrong when out of free service and parts. The a/c is VS also. Same complaint air distribution changes depending on speed. Better at %RH control, but during low/no sensible cooling and high outdoor dew point, we need supplemental dehumidification in goodly amounts to maintain 50%RH. Again, fear who will be able to fix and how much it will cost when free service/part run out.
Sounded good at the time but still fear complexity and cost to repair.
My a/c contractor loves to sell complex systems. Recently owner of a/c co suffered a stroke.
I have yet to see an a/c that can maintain 50%RH without reheat, during low/no cooling loads and high outdoor dew points.
The story goes on.
Regards Teddy Bear

[hedrash]

We just made a huge improvement to the dehumidification algorithm allowing for extremely low evaporator temperatures by lowering the fan speed tremendously & I using a supply air sensor to maintain temp. See how it goes. So far it looks promising.

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[jtrammel]

Would like to hear your views on wether it is worth it or not? If it matters to what region your in its Vancouver for me.

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You'll never see an ROI but if comfort is your concern then it's worth it.

[lkapigian]

The payback may be way out there, but if your reducing kWh , there will always be ROI. 2 different metrics ...which one is right, depends on your expectations . if on has the liquidity and the ROI% is better than the bank or investments are pating, its a simple answer

[icy78]

Back to teddybears post about the variable airflow. How do you maintain the cfm to all rooms when you may not be producing enough static to get the air there? It may trickle out of the lowest resistance registers. So you may have a very narrow band of cfm change that is actually available to give comfort?

[lkapigian]

Not to discount ducting's relation to the VS or 2 Stage, but the Supply Grills/diffusers really generate the velocity for throw. Select diffusers that will be in the Sweet Spot of design airflow and what the velocity would be of the existing duct system.

[mgenius33]

Would like to hear your views on wether it is worth it or not? If it matters to what region your in its Vancouver for me.

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Yes!