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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Blower on delay/lack of most likely due to getting the high efficiency rating. However, most if not all VS ECM blowers have a ramp up profile that starts the blower slowly, which minimizes how much moisture can be put back into the air on start up.

    A/Cs aren't made specially for for your area.
    Agree High SEER doesn't have anything to do with R Comfort to House Holds
    the Original Design I was Told was for 1600 CFM in 1972 , so a Lot has happen since then & I gave all that Information to the Main Trane Certified Tech - Owner - He didn't do a Manual J as asked from above Post .. He seems like a Very Good Guy !
    I'm Believe He would Help Us out as We are Retired and I told Him Hey I'm Not a Air Guy - I'm a Oil Boiler man .

    I'm Adding In the Second Company Gauge Test of the CFM & RH . read ( New Gauge )
    I did make a Mistake in the Original - CFM - on Grill #4 as it really is 11" x 11" Intake Area they cal it a 12" x 12"
    Please see New Figures .

    Different Gauge Being Used vs Cheaper Gauge / / / USA Taiwan vs China Gauges .
    I Say USA there as Taiwan has been Building most All USA Computer Motherboards & Sensors for 20 Plus Yrs.

    4 Return Grills : CFM Based on 8 Readings Avg. of LFM - Converted to CFM
    Grill 1 - Short and Straight 16" X 20"
    Grill 2 Near Ceiling Corner - Long Narrow Run 16" X 20 " Warmer Temps vs Floor Temps approx. 4 Degrees
    Grill 3 - End of same Long Narrow Run 16 " x 20 " Up Stairs - Higher Temps vs 1st Floor approx 8 Degree
    Grill 4 - In Conditioned Furnace Room & Basement 12" x 12"
    The Degree Temps Mentioned as Extra 16" x 20 " Return Grill on the Long Narrow at Floor Being Recently Removed.

    Stage 1 - Grill #1 Intake CFM once Up & Running - based on 8 Reading Avg. = 876. Cfm
    Stage1 - Grill #2 same as above = 98 Cfm
    Stage1 - Grill #3 same as above = 252 Cfm
    Stage1 - Grill #4 same as above = 199 Cfm

    Temperature from 1st Floor House Hold AC Vents 50-52 Degrees - First Stage 2 Run - RH = 62%
    Temperature from 1st Floor House Hold Vents 48 - 50 Degrees - Second Stage 2 Run RH = 65%
    Temp - Up Stairs Vents = 52 - 55 Degree - 6" Rounds - RH = 64% - All RH Read @ Vents for 5 Min.

    Stage2 - Grill #1 Return Air Up & Running 8 Reading Avg. = 967. Cfm
    Stage2 - Grill #2 Return same as above = 162. Cfm
    Stage2 - Grill #3 Return same as above = 347. Cfm
    Stage2 - Grill #4 Return same as above = 385.38 Cfm

    50 Pint Dehumidifier - 130 Cfm - Into the Furnace Room at 22% Relative Humidity @ 95 Degrees .

    I still Feel that the Program Stat and Mother board just aren't Working to Control Humidity .
    If the Coil hasn't Meant Temperature then , Air Handler - shouldn't Run !

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by QualityAssure View Post
    I still Feel that the Program Stat and Mother board just aren't Working to Control Humidity .
    If the Coil hasn't Meant Temperature then , Air Handler - shouldn't Run !
    [/I][/B][/COLOR]
    If it wouldn't be over sized, you wouldn't be having these problems.

    Your stage 1 CFMs add up 1425, and your stage 2 CFM list, adds up to over 1861 CFM. Ain't gonna dehumidify with that air flow. No matter how cold the coil would get before the fan came on, if it delayed by temp.
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  3. #29
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    Thank You for Your Responses : Looking at the CFM - Returns and using Conservative Numbers
    and smaller opening taking into Acct. Filter Screen Materials Sizes CFM Intake could be as Low as . .
    Stage 1 = 1283 CFM
    Stage 2 = 1697 CFM


    When I use an On Line RH Calculator to Figure Dew Point from the above Temp & RH Readings
    The Dew point is 39.1 Degrees F - to - 42 Degree's F

    Tried to get a Coil Temp - with the IR Scanner into the Coil Box , through the Liquid Line
    Opening Only got 50 Degree's - but couldn't see what it was Hitting On ..

  4. #30
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    What you need to know, is the dew point of the return air.
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  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by QualityAssure View Post
    I Hear very well what Your saying Sir , I just Hope that the Air Equipment Industry are Seeing the
    EYE Staring Back at Them .
    Things are going to Change . This Planet doesn't Operate Off the Backs - of the - Little People. All Industries - need to be Doing Their part for a - Greener Tomorrow .

    What Your Truly saying is the Air Equipment Industry : Is " Well aware of Better Methods "
    Doesn't Wish to Implement them do to Possible Warranty Claims .

    Most Computer - Folks Know that Any Authorization to Over ride a Set - Calibration of Fan Speed
    through the Stat & Motherboard - to - Tweak for Home Improvements would be or Installers
    Calculations being Wrong - would - Only be Authorized By Equipment Manufacture & Trained Cert. Tech in the Field .

    ( 1. Code would Be Used )
    ( 2. Codes are Traceable and Held in Hard Memory Flash )
    ( 3. Hard Memory Flash only be Altered with Physical Removable and soldering Board Chips )

    All of Switch Void - Owners Equipment Warranty
    So These Bio's Updates to MB's and Firmware Updates to Stat's are all In house as the Mother Broads are In house Designs - which Special Front Loading of Code !

    ( Where's the Code or Firmware up Dates - Called Support ) 2 Stage - Air handlers !

    There is NO Reason the 100 % variable Speeds can't be adjusted , Heck these Motors could even
    Run Backwards - and - Blow the Moisture Into the Drainage Pan . .

    90% of these Air Companies don't Wish to be the Best on the Planet , Your Saying ..
    Your Saying They aren't Green - Either - 110 Million House Holds - They should all be Adding a second De-Humidifier .

    The Air Industry Is in Collusion and Engineering Against - Energy Efficient Homes .
    Heaven forbid If You choose to be Energy Eff % and Improve one's Home .


    This is what I hearing and reading on this Site ..
    You are reading wrong.

    A properly sized AC unit will dehumidify well 95% of the time. A 3 ton unit probably would have worked for you. Possibly a 3.5. If you need extra dehumidification you can hook a dehumidifier up to you duct work.

    The changes you are suggesting will cause many warranty claims, unhappy customers and unhappy contractors. It will complicate a system and cause more service repairs down the road with unneeded components and upgraded controls. Because remember, adequate dehumidification can be achieved with proper sizing of equipment.

    Maybe you can talk to your contractor and see if they can give you a break on a central dehumidifier install. I'm not going to say they made a mistake. The unit is likely a bit oversized, but most people don't run around the house with a psychrometer and wouldn't even notice if the humidity level was normally in the upper 50's and occasionally hit 60%.

    Not many contractors can hit a load calculation perfectly, so they often add a half a ton. We get many calls every year when the ambient hits 95+ and t'stat start creeping up to the upper 70's. Try telling someone that just spent $ that the unit is running perfectly and 78 degrees is normal on very hot days. But their RH is 50%. They don't care.

    I would look into the whole home Dehumidifier. They really work great and do save money. I can't say for sure if they pay for themselves but you will get some money back over the life of the unit. They are more efficient at removing moisture than an A/C system and your A/C will run less. You will also likely be able to turn up your thermostat setting a degree and still feel just as comfortable.
    Last edited by beenthere; 07-16-2016 at 05:26 AM.
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  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    You are reading wrong.

    A properly sized AC unit will dehumidify well 95% of the time. A 3 ton unit probably would have worked for you. Possibly a 3.5. If you need extra dehumidification you can hook a dehumidifier up to you duct work.

    The changes you are suggesting will cause many warranty claims, unhappy customers and unhappy contractors. It will complicate a system and cause more service repairs down the road with unneeded components and upgraded controls. Because remember, adequate dehumidification can be achieved with proper sizing of equipment.

    Maybe you can talk to your contractor and see if they can give you a break on a central dehumidifier install. I'm not going to say they made a mistake. The unit is likely a bit oversized, but most people don't run around the house with a psychrometer and wouldn't even notice if the humidity level was normally in the upper 50's and occasionally hit 60%.

    Not many contractors can hit a load calculation perfectly, so they often add a half a ton. We get many calls every year when the ambient hits 95+ and t'stat start creeping up to the upper 70's. Try telling someone that just spent $ that the unit is running perfectly and 78 degrees is normal on very hot days. But their RH is 50%. They don't care.

    I would look into the whole home Dehumidifier. They really work great and do save money. I can't say for sure if they pay for themselves but you will get some money back over the life of the unit. They are more efficient at removing moisture than an A/C system and your A/C will run less. You will also likely be able to turn up your thermostat setting a degree and still feel just as comfortable.
    Manual J doesn't tell you what size A/C you need. It tells you what capacity the A/C needs, Manual S tells you what size.
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  7. #33
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    OK, so None of these 2 stage systems - Will Run Compressor Stage 1 First to Cool the Coil before Kicking on the Air Handler - Just Seems really Odd ..
    It also seems very Odd that the ( Temperature of the Coil has Nothing to do with Amount of CFM - A - Computerized Motor is Demanding ) . .
    Dip Switches - would seem to be "Only Used to get a System ( Into the Ball Park" ) and the " Smart System Components" do the Rest )
    That would be the Way these Things should be working . . so -

    Just Checking Under the Hood - sort of Speaking .. as I don't Design or Engineer Air-handlers . .
    There is NO Sensor on or In the Coil Area ?
    No Feed Back of Temp or Humidity - Coming Off - the Air Handler to Inform the Computerized Motor - How to Adjust ?

    If that's the Case _ Sounds like there is a Huge Market for : http://www.theacenhancer.com/Install.php






  8. #34
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    We are taking a couple of ounces of water evaporation per cycle. It is nothing compare to the 3-4 lbs. per hour of moisture load from the occupants and infiltration/ventilation fresh air when the sensible cooling loads are low and outdoor dew point are high.
    More important is setting the a/c coil cold enough to get dry the home during high cooling loads. This a 30^F colder coil than the return air temp.
    Get a small whole house dehumidifier that removes the moisture from the occupants and infiltrating/ventilating fresh air. Figure 3-6 lbs. per hour.
    Set the temperature desired and %RH desired, relax and enjoy. No overcooling or damp times.
    Regards Teddy Bear
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  9. Likes Brian8383 liked this post
  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    We are taking a couple of ounces of water evaporation per cycle. It is nothing compare to the 3-4 lbs. per hour of moisture load from the occupants and infiltration/ventilation fresh air when the sensible cooling loads are low and outdoor dew point are high.
    More important is setting the a/c coil cold enough to get dry the home during high cooling loads. This a 30^F colder coil than the return air temp.
    Get a small whole house dehumidifier that removes the moisture from the occupants and infiltrating/ventilating fresh air. Figure 3-6 lbs. per hour.
    Set the temperature desired and %RH desired, relax and enjoy. No overcooling or damp times.
    Regards Teddy Bear
    OK - Just Ran the Dew Points : Please Look at the Numbers - Curious as to the Bumps in Readings also .

    Dew Points - from RH & Temp of AC - Vents - Readings taken Approx 1 min. apart for
    Stage 1 - Long Run 27 ft. from Coil.

    Stage 2
    Reads @ Approx 2 min. Apart - this is on the Shortest Run & Coldest - 12 ft. from Coil .

    REQUESTING - AC
    Stage 1 Starts - see Dew Point readings Approx 1 Min. Apart
    64.5
    64.0
    64.2
    64.5
    64.1
    64.1
    64.1
    63.4 Stage1 Preparing to Go to Stage 2
    Stage 2 Starts - see Dew Point readings Approx 2 Min. Apart
    56.6
    56.3
    55.9
    54.7
    54.3
    53.8
    51.8
    51.6
    51.1
    52.0 Stage 2 Starts doing something - Not Sure What ? - - ( Coolant Puddling ) ?
    52.1
    51.9
    49.7 Stage 2 Cooling more after the Above Thinking about - Motor Adjustment - Possible ?
    49.9
    49.9 Stage 2 Thinking about Going Off - Last 3 min. Blows RH Moisture Up - may have gone 5 min. , but Shut It Down .
    53.8
    55.4
    SHUT DOWN _ ACTUALLY HAPPENS HERE .

  11. #36
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    But what was the dew point of the air entering the return?

    Your VS blower board has a ramp up profile. So that the AC enhancer you linked to would do nothing to improve the A/C. but it would improve the wallet of who ever sold it to you.

    Seems like a lot of work to make an over sized A/C work better.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    But what was the dew point of the air entering the return?

    Your VS blower board has a ramp up profile. So that the AC enhancer you linked to would do nothing to improve the A/C. but it would improve the wallet of who ever sold it to you.

    Seems like a lot of work to make an over sized A/C work better.
    The Interior DP During the Data Collection :Started 59.1 F >> 57.7 F >> 56.3 Only get these Numbers by Manually Switching system Off .
    If I just Let it Run Humidity goes to 64% @ 75 Degrees = DP 62.0 F

    The Coil is Holding onto approx 2-3 Gallons of Water . Stage 1 - Coil Is NOT Cool Enough - to Pull Anything - Period . The End of Stage 2 is also Blowing Up Humidity 3-5 Min. Before - Relaxing Or Slowing the Air Flow ..

    The Ramp Ups of Air are to Fast and the Ramp - Downs are to Slow ..

    The Motor & Systems are Not Matched

    It's Like the Stat is in Winter Heat Program & the Winter Heat Program is in Summer Time - System is doing just the Opposite of What We were told it would Do .

    Which Leads or Points to Genteg Motors
    have Air Handler Design Guys by Their Balls or the Motherboard Design Group - Have Not Given _ Correct Information to Genteg and ( They are All Pointing the Finger @ Each Other ) - Mean Time
    There are at Least 113 Installs I have found that are doing the Same thing .
    That leaves about 9000 Others that are still in the Dark . .





  13. #38
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    The Ramp Ups of Air are to Fast and the Ramp - Downs are to Slow ..


    No Enhancer on this System - was Suppose to be Already Smart . .

    Apparently No Senors for Humidity or Coil Temperature - 2 of the Most Important Items
    A Smart system would need ..

    Common Clothes Dryer's have Humidity Sensor - RPM - Variable , Heat Variable
    for at Least 15 - 20 Yrs.


  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by QualityAssure View Post
    OK, so None of these 2 stage systems - Will Run Compressor Stage 1 First to Cool the Coil before Kicking on the Air Handler - Just Seems really Odd ..
    It also seems very Odd that the ( Temperature of the Coil has Nothing to do with Amount of CFM - A - Computerized Motor is Demanding ) . .
    Dip Switches - would seem to be "Only Used to get a System ( Into the Ball Park" ) and the " Smart System Components" do the Rest )
    That would be the Way these Things should be working . . so -

    Just Checking Under the Hood - sort of Speaking .. as I don't Design or Engineer Air-handlers . .
    There is NO Sensor on or In the Coil Area ?
    No Feed Back of Temp or Humidity - Coming Off - the Air Handler to Inform the Computerized Motor - How to Adjust ?

    If that's the Case _ Sounds like there is a Huge Market for : http://www.theacenhancer.com/Install.php


    For this to work with a compressor that is staged (low speed/high speed) the indoor blower speed could be varied to maintain either a preferred discharge air temperature (55ΊF, commonly) or a preferred coil surface temperature to maximize coil dehumidification potential. The problem is that most residential compressors have no way to diminish speed in an analog fashion or load/unload the compression chamber in order to tightly hold the coil surface or discharge air temperature.

    Sure, it can be done more loosely just by varying blower speed, but a steady rate of air over the indoor coil coupled with a compressor that can modulate capacity is a preferred approach. The trick to getting an evaporator coil good and cold to dehumidify well, with steady air volume through the coil, is to keep suction pressure inside it down to maximize phase change over a maximum area of the coil, but not so low that the coil begins to freeze over.
    Psychrometrics: the very foundation of HVAC. A comfort troubleshooter's best friend.

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