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  1. #1
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    Hmm Humidity Control ? Run Time a little Short .

    As a Few may remember - New system last Fall with Min. Testing on A/C - then this past Spring - something to the effect
    of a Review by Program Trane Rep . 4 Ton / 2 Stage with 100 % Variable Air Handler . . ( Haa on 100% )

    OK after after all the Home Tightening with Basement Windows and Better Insulation R 48 or so - settled now .

    We Completely -100% - Removed Carpet in Basement and went to 18" Ceramic Tile ..
    I will Add with a LOT of Prep and Special Breathable Water Proofing the Walls - Sealed the Tile and Grout Twice
    18" x 18" Tile seems to made a Different - as now - able to Hold 54% Humidity most of the Time ..
    with Us Shutting the System Down . ( Letting the Condensation Line & Coil do it's thing Drain )
    .

    A Lot of Details I Know - Please Bare with Me .

    The Dehumidifier which would become Filled twice a Day , once every 12 Hours .. will Now Go 24 Hours 50 Pint Rated
    Even thou - We Turned it down to a Lower Number 50% Vs 60% Last Yr. ( Improvement ) .. OK

    I have also Opened Up 2 Air Condition Vents in the basement just today to Go to a Higher Load on System ..
    Max the Up Stairs - Settings on Vents .

    Also seeing there were 3 ( 16" x 20 " ) Grills on 1 of the Return Trunks - Removed Lowest one - Left the 1 at Ceiling
    & 1 Up Stairs same Return Trunk - Slightly Increasing Load on System again .

    Rep Last Yr. was here 3 Hours at Least : I believe were Now at 300 CFM as He set it 4 Ton system .

    Really Trying to obtain 48% - 52% - If I just let the System Run 100 % on it's Own the Stage 1 still drives Humidity Up
    to 64% on this Split system - in a Conditioned Space ..

  2. #2
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    Thread Starter
    In Conclusion one is only left to Feel the only way to do this is Freeze Lock stage 2 ( Just about ) then Shorten it's Run Time so it doesn't Freeze
    so Stage 1 - is Really Cooling & Removing Moisture . Seeing there is No Real Control over the 100 Air Handler , as I could just Adjust the Flow down to 90% of stage 2 - then Running Stage 1 Longer - .. As it is set up now ( Only Stage 2 Pulls Moisture . )

    Very Strange - Stage 1 should also be able to Pull Moisture ( NOT Thrown It back Into the Home ) ..
    This Leads one to Feel Motherboard & Stat - are - Not Matched !
    Lack of Extended Run Times as Program Stat are No Where - near 25 - 36 min.
    Stage 1 is 9 min. Where the F&^% is that Going should be able to Run stage 1 for 40 min. & Set Air Flow to 100 - 140 CFM in Order to Pull Real Moisture .
    Seeing Stage 1 is 50% Air Handle speed of 300 or 350 CFM - any Better STAT's Out there ?
    The Air Temp would most likely Match the Homes LOST or Heat Load ! ( I Guess ) any Ideas . .
    Picking Up - an airflow volume anemometer with Humidity Read Out - to - Log Data Airflow Volume Anemometer

    Airflow Volume Anemometer

  3. #3
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    Stage one removes less moisture then stage 2 on most 2 stage units. So they need real long run times. Sounds like your 1 ton over sized.
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  4. #4
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    Thread Starter
    I Here what Your saying ` \: - )

    So there are No Real 100 % Variable Adjustments , but Tons of 100% Variable Air Handlers .. Really What Type of Fool Game is this ?

    If I could Slow Down the Air enough - Stage 1 would Pull Moisture - It's just Isn't !

    Example : Leaky Windows - I shut down Air @ 73 Degree's and 55 % Humidity it stays there for 4 Hrs. and During the Hottest Hellish Days
    Temperature goes back to 76 in 2.25 Hrs. , but Humidity is still 56% ( NOT 64% as Stage 1 Produces Un _ Attended) 64%
    People Feel Uncomfortable & Mold and other Items start to take off , Furniture is Effected etc. ..
    So Stage 1 Can't Be Matched any Way in Hell to Air Flow .. ( Back to Motherboard & Stat - good for Arizona ).

  5. #5
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    Thread Starter
    I Hired a Pro to do this _ I was Busy doing Items like Bow Windows , Hybrid Hot water Tank , Entire Front Door system , Insulation @ Least R48 ,
    New Dish Washer , just to name a few . .

    This is Not the Best Eff% set up _ which I paid for , nor is it Correct ..

    http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/Cu...ttle%20Cottage

    http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/Cu...Water%20System

    http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/Cu...e/Bow%20Window

  6. #6
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    The key is the amount of air flow verses the cooling capacity. I am not familiar with your system. Followup with air temps/%RH with both stages and contact your a/c tech.
    You need a 45^F coil temp with both stages.
    Keep us posted.
    Regards Teddy Bear
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  7. #7
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    Thread Starter
    Roger That !

    I'll be Logging Soon ..
    Home is 2535 Sq Ft, - 2635 sq, ft . If You count Laundry room which is a Slow Vent . .
    At around 633 Sq. Ft per ton and this is Not a even a Tight Home . ( Average ) .. the Brick on the western side on a 88 Temp Day . read
    100 Degrees with the Ir Gauge - those take 4-5 Hours to cool down , so Yeah Scratching My Head Here ..

  8. #8
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    Each home air tightness and insulation improvement you make/made. Decreases the sensible cooling load. Which means it cools the home faster then its able to remove humidity/moisture.

    VS blowers vari their speed to maintain set air flow/CFM. They are not made so you as the home owner can vari the speed as you want.
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  9. #9
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Each home air tightness and insulation improvement you make/made. Decreases the sensible cooling load. Which means it cools the home faster then its able to remove humidity/moisture.

    VS blowers vari their speed to maintain set air flow/CFM. They are not made so you as the home owner can vari the speed as you want.
    I would think that Large Smart Company's would by Now 2016 Allow their Tech to Adjust the 100% Variable
    Air Handlers _ so as to avoid - Changing out a Coil - just to get Proper Temps of 42-45 Degrees . Which also seems a Bit High , as I have seen plenty running Fine with 1/3 Coating of - Ice on them .


    Thank You for Your response , and I'm Posting up some Manual Data Logging :

    First Up will be the Grill Intake Air _ Read with Anemometer .

    A. There are 2 Separate Returns & Basement Plume Intake Grill , so #1 Grill - has 16 x 20 Grill - High Flow set up with Short Run Dumps Nice and Straight Down to Plume . Return #2 has 2 : 16 X 20 Grills - Located @ Ceiling near a Corner and Other is Up Stairs with a
    Larger Volume Behind Grill Opening . Also Return #2 with Both Grills is a Long Run and Smaller .. Already in Home .
    Return #4 is 12" x 12" Grill in Main Plume in Furnace Room - should have been Placed closer to Intake Return #1 to stall that some
    Enhancing Long return Trunk #2 , but I wasn't in the Room when the Tech Slammed it in .. ( I might be Off ) on that Last Part .
    It's Possible the 12 x 12 is going so Fast past the #2 Trunk Entrance to the Plume it's making a Vacuum . .

    B. All these are Running same Filters .

    C. All Readings were Held for 5 seconds to stabilize - 6 readings were taken @ each Grill Housing Face .
    Then Averaged .

    D. 2 Sets of Readings were taken , 1 set with CFM selected and 1 set with L ft. / min. which was Conveted
    to CFM - After the 6 readings were Averaged . . @ Each Grill .

    EE - I Just happen to like Double EE's - LOL

    E. The Above was Done for Stage 1 and Stage 2 - Double Readings . .

    Grill #1 Stage 1 = 740 Cfm / Grill #1 Stage 2 = 876.6 Cfm
    Grill #1 Stage 1 = 770.2 Cfm Converted / Grill #1 Stage 2 = 890 Cfm Converted

    Grill #2 Stage1 = 162 Cfm / Grill #2 Stage 2 = 215.9 Cfm // Grill #2 Stage 1 Converted = 162.25 Cfm - Stage 2 Converted = 219.5
    Grill #3 Stage1 = 291 Cfm / Grill #2 Stage 2 = 398 Cfm // Grill #3 Stage 1 Converted = 278 & Stage 2 Converted = 374.0 Cfm
    Grill # 4 stage 1 = 325 Cfm / Stage 2 = 374 Cfm // Grill #4 Stage 1 Converted = 338.4 Cfm & Stage 2 Converted = 379.8

    I Think these Numbers are a little High for a System I believe was Turned down to 350 Cu. ft. Per Ton ..

  10. #10
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    With those CFMs(if they are close to accurate), a 4 ton 2 stage isn't going to do any dehumidifying in first stage. There may be a setting not set right on the air handler.

    If it was made easy to adjust the CFM of a VS blower to any CFM. Lots of techs, and home owners would have them running too slow most of the time.

    You may have seen a coil 1/3 iced up and still cooling the home/place. But they were not running fine. And may have been greatly shortening teh life span of the compressor.
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  11. #11
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    Yes, but a Tech Certified - would be the Only one with Clearance to make those Changes . .

    Far as Air conditioning goes it should be a Humidity Stat , not a Temp Stat - Temperature should be secondary consideration for the Stat . or ( Motherboard ) Air Handler .


    After 35 min.- 40 min. of Stage II the Air Handler Slowly Ramp Down to say 250 Per ton Cfm
    Where the Coil would be at Coldest Point . After the Initial Cool Down of Stage II , Stage 1 could Carry the system , so long as it was Very Cool . Stage II only coming on for Extra Hot Afternoons or Extra Hot Days . .

    How Much of a Roll would a Humidity Sensor Add On really effect the Current 2015 Equipment of Trane's ?
    10 % 30 % - I really don't see a Extra Sensor doing much of anything ?

    ps: After some Further Test the CFM Read Out Stopped and the Humidity Readings got all Squirrels
    So this Gauge is Going Back and I'm picking up another One .

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by QualityAssure View Post
    Yes, but a Tech Certified - would be the Only one with Clearance to make those Changes . .

    Other techs would learn how to do it, and mess up systems, and cause lots of warranty claims.

    Far as Air conditioning goes it should be a Humidity Stat , not a Temp Stat - Temperature should be secondary consideration for the Stat . or ( Motherboard ) Air Handler .

    Properly sized A/C doesn't need a humidity priority stat.


    After 35 min.- 40 min. of Stage II the Air Handler Slowly Ramp Down to say 250 Per ton Cfm

    That will freeze up most coils.

    Where the Coil would be at Coldest Point . After the Initial Cool Down of Stage II , Stage 1 could Carry the system , so long as it was Very Cool . Stage II only coming on for Extra Hot Afternoons or Extra Hot Days . .

    A properly sized 2 stage, cycles between first and second stage on the warmer.

    How Much of a Roll would a Humidity Sensor Add On really effect the Current 2015 Equipment of Trane's ?
    10 % 30 % - I really don't see a Extra Sensor doing much of anything ?

    Sounds like your trying to create a market for something that isn't really needed, on properly sized A/Cs.

    ps: After some Further Test the CFM Read Out Stopped and the Humidity Readings got all Squirrels
    So this Gauge is Going Back and I'm picking up another One .
    Over sized equipment is the cause of high humidity in many homes.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Over sized equipment is the cause of high humidity in many homes.
    The outdoor dew points are +65^F while the outdoor temps are <75^F, how does the a/c run enough to maintain 50%RH inside the home? Infiltration/ventilation and the moisture from the occupants is 3-5 lbs. per hour, if we want 75^F, 50%RH, 55^F dew point inside the home.
    The a/c may not run at all, or very little.
    Help me understand how this works.
    Regards Teddy Bear
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

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