Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 28

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    2,337
    Post Likes

    grounding, not enough

    Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

    Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

    I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

    How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Bellevue, Washington, United States
    Posts
    1,643
    Post Likes
    You should get a licensed electrician out there right away. Maybe your grounding isn't proper but maybe somehow an electrified wire has come in contact with your pipes.

  3. Likes Anderson A/c liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    25,192
    Post Likes
    That sounds real nice and all - but in the law is a concept called: Implied Fitness For Purpose. Someone cannot sell you something intended for a specific purpose which is not fit for that purpose.

    Have your attorney remind the power company of this basic point of Law and you may well find their attitude toward your concerns will improve.

    PHM
    -------


    Quote Originally Posted by timjimbob View Post
    Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

    Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

    I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

    How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,198
    Post Likes
    Lighting strikes

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Stongsville Oh
    Posts
    1,410
    Post Likes
    Damn PHM you make a good lawyer too!
    ckartson
    I didn't write the book I just read it!

  7. Likes johoff34 liked this post
  8. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Athens, Ohio
    Posts
    6,560
    Post Likes
    No amount of bonding or grounding will correct an energized neutral line. The ONLY fix is to identify the source of the problem and correct it. A failed neutral is also not difficult to identify. A thorough electrician should have recognized the symptoms in short order.
    AOP Rules: Rules For Equipment Owners.

    Free online load calculator: http://www.loadcalc.net/


    There = not here. Their = possessive pronoun. They're = they are
    It's = contraction of it is. Its = the possessive form of it
    Too = also. To = expressing motion. Two = 2
    Then = after that, next. Than = indicates a comparison.
    Questions should end with a question mark "?" Statements end with a period "."

  9. Likes DavidDeBord liked this post
  10. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    25,192
    Post Likes
    Can you explain why?

    It seems to me that, electrically speaking; the neutral at the transformer out on the power pole is to the ground - the dirt - the Earth connection.

    In other words: "the neutral" is not hard wired back to the power plant.

    So how is it different if I ground the neutral wire at the building end of the wire or at the transformer side of the wire? Why won't a driven-rod ground at the service entrance work the same at it would if the grounding rod was out at the pole?

    Hmmmm . . . . Now that I am thinking about it: there really isn't any such thing as a 'neutral' connection at the transformer - is there? Isn't the primary side just 'one leg to ground' ?

    Can you tell me what grounding a neutral at the building end won't work?

    Oh wait - you are saying "an energized neutral" - how do you mean that? Do mean mean energized Other than through a connected load? All neutrals are "energized" in any working circuit situation - right?

    Whew! OK; your turn. <g>


    PHM
    -----------



    Quote Originally Posted by kdean1 View Post
    No amount of bonding or grounding will correct an energized neutral line. The ONLY fix is to identify the source of the problem and correct it. A failed neutral is also not difficult to identify. A thorough electrician should have recognized the symptoms in short order.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  11. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Athens, Ohio
    Posts
    6,560
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    Can you explain why?

    It seems to me that, electrically speaking; the neutral at the transformer out on the power pole is to the ground - the dirt - the Earth connection.

    In other words: "the neutral" is not hard wired back to the power plant.

    So how is it different if I ground the neutral wire at the building end of the wire or at the transformer side of the wire? Why won't a driven-rod ground at the service entrance work the same at it would if the grounding rod was out at the pole?

    Hmmmm . . . . Now that I am thinking about it: there really isn't any such thing as a 'neutral' connection at the transformer - is there? Isn't the primary side just 'one leg to ground' ?

    Can you tell me what grounding a neutral at the building end won't work?

    Oh wait - you are saying "an energized neutral" - how do you mean that? Do mean mean energized Other than through a connected load? All neutrals are "energized" in any working circuit situation - right?

    Whew! OK; your turn. <g>


    PHM
    -----------
    My first reference was to a situation I encountered years ago in which two service cables touched each other near the pole. Over time the neutral wire of one service drop rubbed through the insulation on a wire of the other service and had 120 potential volts (energized). All the devices in the house that were were to be 120 from the other side of the service to neutral were now 240 volts. The painter's radio blew upas a result. The house and electrical system were so old that the service did not have a ground.
    AOP Rules: Rules For Equipment Owners.

    Free online load calculator: http://www.loadcalc.net/


    There = not here. Their = possessive pronoun. They're = they are
    It's = contraction of it is. Its = the possessive form of it
    Too = also. To = expressing motion. Two = 2
    Then = after that, next. Than = indicates a comparison.
    Questions should end with a question mark "?" Statements end with a period "."

  12. Likes DavidDeBord liked this post
  13. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    in a house, Appomattox, Va.
    Posts
    4,621
    Post Likes
    I've seen where the neutral to pole was lost in the meter, multiple times. (this will come up on search engine well enough) the L1/L2 voltages will float based on what loads are running, 120/120, 80/160, etc.
    So there is a ground, but weird voltages.

    It could be a bonding issue internal to the meter or panel box that's allowing voltage to tub. I've seen the telephone do this to support column in basement (can't explain that one). also, hot refer line on heat pump evap coil- no ground connection in ht pump condensor and had one leg shorted to "ground" or rather unit cabinet.

    maybe there's plastic in the plumbing off wh, and weak ground on wh, which would allow voltage?
    Col 3:23


    questions asked, answers received, ignorance abated

  14. #10
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,419
    Post Likes
    The neutral is a grounded current carrying conductor. It is grounded at the transformer and at the house main disconnecting source.
    What you have is a ground fault situation, most likely one of the 120v power conductors is grounding to the plumbing system somewhere. Its just not a good enough of a short to trip the breaker. Best way to find the problem is find which breaker kills the problem when turned off and trace out the wiring for that circuit till you find the short. You need an electrician before you or somebody gets killed.

  15. Likes farm tech, DavidDeBord liked this post
  16. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Dallas,Texas
    Posts
    5,145
    Post Likes
    The neutral is a zero reference for the service and also carries the unbalanced phase current.
    If something happens to the neutral at your building or house; the zero reference is gone so voltages can get weird. And also the unbalanced current is trying to get back to the transformer. It will travel thru your plumbing pipes, thru the ground and to someone else's plumbing\ electric\neutral or maybe back to the ground wire at the transformer pole. It will travel thru whichever has the lowest overall impedance.

  17. Likes Juan Madera, DavidDeBord liked this post
  18. #12
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,419
    Post Likes
    You have 2 problems, 1- neutral was lost at transformer, 2- energized [hot] is in contact with plumbing somewhere.

  19. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    2,337
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by rsmith46 View Post
    You have 2 problems, 1- neutral was lost at transformer, 2- energized [hot] is in contact with plumbing somewhere.
    I did not have #2 issue. Here is why,Hot goes through 120 load then onto neutral that is not connected to pole

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •